What has happened to QC at Smith and Wesson?

[white cloud]

I am 72 and have been buying guns since the mid 1970s. Some of the S&Ws I purchased back then were just fine and a few were really bad. .22 Kit Gun that was unusable and had a terrible blue finish. Model 27 that had the worst side plate fit I have ever seen. Oh and there were some Colts and Rugers with similar issues. Fast forward to 2025. My 640 Pro had to go back. My 3" 686+ is the best timed and most accurate S&W revolver that I have ever owned. What's the take away? First, check new guns carefully. Next, if you find a good shooting and nicely finished gun, don't ever sell it. You may go through a period where you might think you might not ever shoot a gun in your safe again. Still don't sell it. Your shooting interests may change over time and you might be kicking yourself for selling that gun 10 years ago. I know that I do.

 

[bigggbbruce]

The reason S&W QC is so bad. Is that with the internet we now can all whine and others can read about it.

 

[robertrwalsh]

Not sure I agree with that. I would say LAWYERS and BEAN COUNTERS. But maybe that's just me.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

Raise your hand if you refuse to believe “Smith & Wesson was always this bad, it’s just the new fangled internet only just now letting victims of lousy QC share stories.”

That’s BUNK.

S&W has never been worse at quality control. This is a new era and the darkest yet.

Even darker than.......the "Bangor Punta" era!

 

[decuerno]

In simplest terms, what happened was lawyers.
I have lost all interest in any S&Ws made in this century.

Lawyers, politicians, and insurance salesmen are frequent targets of complaint.

But it’s a fact that without them, we’d not have seat-belts, air-bags, smoke and CO-detectors in hotel rooms or many other such conveniences. (Of course, those damn S&W pistol-locks too.)

 

[Sevens]

(Of course, those damn S&W pistol-locks too.)

This simply is not factually accurate. There are -PLENTY- of gunmakers that have turned out guns from the years 2000-present (the era of the S&W internal lock) that chose their own free will and did not add an onboard locking device to their handguns.

S&W chose to do that, probably because the ownership group made the devices.

I too love to blame obnoxious things on nameless, faceless groups of a certain type of employment but the truth matters.

It’s also difficult to understand why S&W makes a higher volume of non-revolver firearms and a total of 0.0% of their non-revolvers have a goofy onboard key-lock device on them.

Is your argument that the massive S&W legal department finds wild potential liability with wheelguns and zero potential liability with semiautomatic firearms…?

 

[bigggbbruce]

S&W chose to do that, probably because the ownership group made the devices.

I too love to blame obnoxious things on nameless, faceless groups of a certain type of employment but the truth matters.

"On May 11, 2001, Saf-T-Hammer Corporation acquired Smith & Wesson Corp. from Tomkins plc for US$15 million, a fraction of the US$112 million originally Saf-T-Hammer, a manufacturer of firearms locks and other safety products, purchased the company with the intention of incorporating its line of security products into all Smith & Wesson firearms in compliance with the 2000 agreement"

 

[decuerno]

This simply is not factually accurate. There are -PLENTY- of gunmakers that have turned out guns from the years 2000-present (the era of the S&W internal lock) that chose their own free will and did not add an onboard locking device to their handguns.

S&W chose to do that, probably because the ownership group made the devices.

I too love to blame obnoxious things on nameless, faceless groups of a certain type of employment but the truth matters.

It’s also difficult to understand why S&W makes a higher volume of non-revolver firearms and a total of 0.0% of their non-revolvers have a goofy onboard key-lock device on them.

Is your argument that the massive S&W legal department finds wild potential liability with wheelguns and zero potential liability with semiautomatic firearms…?

well…first of all…that final sentence in my post was a minor point of concession to the blame often placed on lawyers for all things objectionable.

but…secondly….talk about not being “factually accurate”…
It was the possibility of legal liabilities that provoked S&W to tinker with locks on revolvers. See the “Child Safety Lock Act (CSLA) of 2000 and 2005“ S&W attempted to comply with that law. Furthermore, as a supplier of arms to federal agencies and military, S&W agreed with the Clinton administration to make such modifications in order to avoid legal complications with their federal contracts. Don’t take my word for it. You can find this out for yourself by searching for that info as I did.

Lastly, in response to your “is it your argument that..blah blah blah”… your attempt to place words in my mouth is unwarranted and also “not accurate” …as I was not arguing. I was only remarking that lawyers actions sometimes have desireable results, i.e., seatbelts, smoke detectors, etc.

As for your (inaccurate) comment that many other gun makers do not feel the need to provide locks… you are again wrong. Most guns sold NIB these days have a cheap “child-resistant” cable-lock included at “no extra cost”.

You…are the one seeking to bicker. No further participation on my part to your challenge.

 

[Sevens]

Hilarious how some folks believe everything is wildly personal when they see a reply to something they said. I suppose my actual intentions don't matter when perception is whatever it is.

Does S&W stuff that cheap chinese cable lock in to the box with the larger portion of firearms they ship that do not have an onboard lock?

Does this detail even matter if the discussion is literally an onboard lock built in to the firearm that so many people agree to dislike?

None of these details matter if feelings get hurt.

All of my apologies.

 

[Puller]

Hilarious how some folks believe everything is wildly personal when they see a reply to something they said. I suppose my actual intentions don't matter when perception is whatever it is.

No need to apologize. It's even more hilarious how newcomers come in and right off the bat want to argue and get aggressive in 90% of their posts.

 

[decuerno]

No need to apologize. It's even more hilarious how newcomers come in and right off the bat want to argue and get aggressive in 90% of their posts.

Friends, it is not I …who created the controversy. Being newer to the forums does not equate to argumentative.

 

[dben002]

The buying customer is now S&W's quality control. less than 1/2 who purchase a defective firearm will return it to S&W for repair as it takes forever to do so. If you call them they may send you a new part....All In all ..... less work for S&W and they get a good idea of quality problems without having to spend time repairing them......

 

[MP-5]

What has happened to QC at Smith and Wesson?​

 

[rwsmith]

That's why I buy OLDER S&Ws, preferably late 90s at the newest.

 

[WR Moore]

This is from the perspective of an old fart with production machining experience. With the exception of things like Rolls Royce automobiles, EVERYBODY puts out a product every now and then that's less than stellar. What matters is how they resolve the issue. I once received a gunsmith fit match 1911 barrel from an internationally renowned manufacturer. Fortunately, I took a look down the bore before I started working on it and discovered to my shock that there was only 3 rifling lands, all on one "side" of the bore. Obviously, the rifling button had shattered while the blank was being rifled. The internationally known blank maker, the folks who machined the barrel (if they weren't the folks who's name was on the barrel) and the "name" who allegedly made it, happened to notice it. When I called them direct, they simply told me that was impossible. Fortunately, I'd bought the barrel through Brownell's and they happily exchanged it. I haven't bought from the "name" since.

ETA: for those who long for the olden days, I've mentioned a M&P that still had the looked like new tan box with blue writing and a finish you could drown in. But, no forcing cone.

Novelist Dorothy Sayers had her premier character comment: "The quality guarantees the name, it don't work the other way around." We should add "And the quality of their customer service when there's a problem." My refusal to buy from the name again reflects their nonexistent customer service.

ETA

 

[Tabby Lynn]

Raise your hand if you refuse to believe “Smith & Wesson was always this bad, it’s just the new fangled internet only just now letting victims of lousy QC share stories.”

That’s BUNK.

S&W has never been worse at quality control. This is a new era and the darkest yet.

I have had my fair share of issues with new pistols, as well as rifles. While I have not had any fall apart I have had issues with S&W triggers and a few with accuracy issues. First issue was with a M&P 40 right after they were introduced. The pistol looked great, but when I went to shoot it, I found a 12 pound trigger pull. I sent it to S&W, they reset the trigger to 4.5 pounds and made a comment that the pistol was set to 12 pounds for police use????? Even with the trigger pull adjusted shooting a group of less than 8 inches at 30 feet was impossible regardless of the ammo used. Several years later I bought one of he new Classic M19s. It too had trigger issues. Instead of the smooth operation either single or double action felt like there was gravel in the action and a rough hammer when cocking to shoot single action. Back to S&W, got it back three weeks later and all had been taken care of, nice smooth trigger both single and double action and extremely accurate no matter what ammo was used. Several years later the CSX came out and I bought it simply because it was all metal. Again trigger and accuracy issues. Back to S&W. The trigger was again 8 lbs out of the box and it would not group at 30 feet. Back to S&W, they fixed the trigger issue and sent it back with the comment that this pistol was designed as a self protection handgun and not a target handgun. I then bought a couple of J models which were flawless??? I looked at the M&P 9, 2.0 Competitor. No I didn't buy it simply because it is supposed to be a taget/competition pistol, without adjustable sights! I have adjustable sights on all of my handguns, if they didn't come with them I purchased and installed them. None of these handguns were designated target/competion so adjustable sights from the factory were not expected but did in fact improve the accuracy of the handguns they were installed on.

I am hoping that with the move to Maryville that the quality of the employees will be better and they will take more pride than those in Massachusetts and that the quality issues will go away. Time will tell.

 

[jfeenin]

Raise your hand if you refuse to believe “Smith & Wesson was always this bad, it’s just the new fangled internet only just now letting victims of lousy QC share stories.”

That’s BUNK.

S&W has never been worse at quality control. This is a new era and the darkest yet.

Yes the idea that people who spend good money on a product that clearly was substandard is the fault of those people because they are actually unhappy about it is insane on it's face. If a company starts making garbage then we should all shout it from the roof tops. If for no other reason than to keep someone else from wasting their hard earned cash.

 

[jfeenin]

Lawyers, politicians, and insurance salesmen are frequent targets of complaint.

But it’s a fact that without them, we’d not have seat-belts, air-bags, smoke and CO-detectors in hotel rooms or many other such conveniences. (Of course, those damn S&W pistol-locks too.)

I don't think any of those can be the blame for my issues. With the revolver the pin was clearly never peened and worked its way out under the recoil of the fist 50 rounds or so. The M&P 22 the screw is so loose in the hole it too was never going to stay put under recoil. Even of a 22. These aren't lawyer issues, or even design issues. These are QC issues.

 

[Petrov]

I was an early adopter of the M&P in 9mm and i had the early unlocking problems. Could not even keep it on cardboard at 25 yards. They told me to pound sand. My last 686 would not even fire and function because it was full of metal shavings, CS told me that its normal and I am supposed to disassemble it and clean it to get it to work. The steel shavings where everywhere, i could not even chamber the rounds in half of the holes.

 

[95Bravo1974]

I know I may get some heat for this but WTH S&W??? Don't get me wrong I have always considered S&W some of the best guns in the "affordable by normal humans" price range. In fact in my household my wife and I have 8 handguns between us, 6 of them are S&W. However my experience with the brand in the past year has been frankly unsatisfactory. By that I mean out of 3 new S&W's acquired since last August 2 of them have literally had parts fall out/off on the first range trip. Seriously?

The first, a rather pricey model 60-15 Pro Series my wife bought last August had the pin holding in the locking bolt fall out in less than 2 boxes of ammo. Looking back at my pictures I took a pic of it after the first 15 or so rounds because, well it's a pretty gun and I wanted a wallpaper kind of pic of it. Regardless in that pic if I zoom in I can see the pin had already started walking out, I just didn't know it. 4 or 5 loadings later when I popped open the cylinder it felt funny and I felt something fall into my hand... It was the locking bolt. Very disappointing as I have 2 other J-frames currently and have owned others before and I have never seen this. Which is why I recommended my wife buy the SW over the Ruger in the first place.

So I called SW and they said they'd send me out two each of the pin and the spring because they are small parts and easily lost while re-assembling. OK fine. When will they be in? No idea, we're in the middle of moving and frankly it might be a bit. Not the answer I wanted to hear but everybody has a mess up once in a while. Weeks go by, no part. I call to follow up and they say yes they see the order was in but still can't see any estimated ship or even if it shipped. So eventually about a month later I get a little yellow envelope in the mail containing nothing but a tiny plastic bag with 2 pins in it. Yay, one part came in but what about the other and yes I scoured that bag for another tiny bag with the springs... notta. On the phone to S&W again, they still can't help and basically tell me I just have to wait. Personally if I was them I would have just sent 2 more springs just to be sure the customer got them. But no, they did not. It's nearly a year later and they still have not arrived. For an $800+ revolver this is completely unacceptable. After the last call though I had a gut feeling I wouldn't see them from Smith so I went on Brownell's and ordered them myself. I put them in (with a little tip I think I found here on this forum about peening the center of the pin) and several hundred rounds later she's still good. However having to wait months for parts to never show and then eventually buy my own parts to make a gun work that should have worked out of the box is not a pleasant experience. I've essentially given up on their support tbh. Waste of my time.

Still just the one bad one, crap happens right? Fast forward to a few months ago and I pick up a 9mm M&P 2.0 Metal. I was in Academy and I held it and I fell in love with it so it came home with me. That pistol has been nothing but flawless. A great big brother to my Shield I carry most (also flawless after thousands of round in the past several years). I cannot say enough good about my M&P Metal, I love that handgun. It may be my favorite handgun I have ever owned. So that's good at least. Also in theory I have a free green-dot sight coming in the mail from the rebate so bonus there.

So move on to this past week. I pick up an M&P 22 Compact. I took it to the range yesterday. First few shots were great. Std velocity CCI Clean Quiet and Remington Golden Bullets. Maybe 3 mags. Then I decided to try some CCI Stingers. As I am shooting I see the shot string is wandering to the side and I am thinking wow I must've had too much coffee or something but on the 6th shot suddenly the sight picture looked different all of a sudden. The rear sight blade had departed the gun. Last 4 shots from the mag went back in the box. Luckily I found the sight blade on the bench and the screw itself had not come all the way out. Another range trip wasted. I was able to re-assemble it later at home but the rear sight screw has literally no rotational tension. So it will just fall out again if I don't do something. Which from what I have read leaves me with two options... get the gun sighted in (and hope the screw hasn't turned on that last shot you tested that sighting with and superglue the screw since you cannot use thread locker in plastic, or two spend another $80 on aftermarket fixed sights from Dawson Precision. Oh I suppose I could go with option 3, send my gun back to Smith and be without it a month, or given my screw experience above never see it again, and have them superglue it where they think it should be.

So 2 out of three recent manufacture Smith and Wesson's fall apart on the first range trip. On the latter issue I find posts on this forum dating back years (now that I searched explicitly for that) where this has been a problem and it doesn't seem to have been adequately addressed. I have been trying to convince my wife to get herself a 380-EZ for a while now but exactly how am I supposed to recommend that now when the obvious retort is "Which parts are going to fall off that one when I need it the most?"

Understood ! 12/24 I bought a 460 S&W mag revolver 8 3/8 bbl… the rear sight didn’t work at all… they sent a replacement… I still haven’t shot it but use those snap caps to absorb the hammer strikes… on double action after 4-5 pulls it LOCKED UP, sometimes the hammer would not move… about 3 weeks ago I call S&W customer service and get some gal that told me just to go shoot it and see if that works ! WTF are you kidding me ! If for some reason the timing is slightly off my fingers are eating lead ! I just hung up on her… about 15 minutes later I call back and get some guy who knows his stuff and I told him what happened with the gal… he said it needs to get back to us for service, I is possibly dangerous to shoot and he was glad I did not shoot it… sent me a 2 day FedX label and sent it on, and in two days S&W advised me they have it… haven’t heard a thing since. So this spring I get a 8 shot 627 from the performance center, open the case at the gun shop, and the front site is dislodged from the firearm… again, WTF, these were very expensive revolvers and I’ve never had an issue with any cult or Smith & Wesson revolver like this in my life I’m 71 and I’ve had gun since I’ve been 16. The site was an easy tap and fit back in and it seems secure. If not, I’ll loctite it in at another time. Makes me wonder about quality control.