455 Mark II Hand Ejector, 2nd Model

[Bohonkie]

Hi all. Kinda new to the "1917" genre of S&Ws so here goes. I just bought a nice revolver which I believe to be as described in my title for this post (cross-referencing three books: S&W 1857 - 1945, Neal & Jinks; History of S&W, Jinks; and Std Catalogue of S&W, Supica & Nahas). I can't really fix on the exact year of manufacture but the History of book reflects 1915-1917; I am thinking 1915 or 1916 (ser Nr: 31355 marked underside of stock frame by lanyard and also on rear of cylinder). Inside crane is marked 4571. There are no markings on the inside (under stocks) of the frame.
Besides mfr year I have a question I hope someone can answer. I was told this revovler is chambered for .45 Colt (Long Colt, if you will). There are no chambering markings on the gun, except the port side of the Bbl which reads SMITH & WESSON 455. I slide the tail of a caliper into one of the cylinder chambers and it reads approximately 1.285" so I believe this gun has been rechambered to the .45 Colt.
Per the S&W 1857-1945 book, some of these were rechambered to .45 Colt and they are marked with British and Canadian proof marks. I looked up the proof marks and found British, but none for Canada. The marks on this gun, appearing a various locations, are: Crossed flags; a crown with TG underneath and under the TG is the letter E and under that is I I ; also a curious looking X with a vertical line drawn straight down the center (sort of like an asterisk but without the horizontal line); and finally a sort of upward arrow. Underneath the Bbl, flat area just ahead of the cylinder, appears B - F.
Do I dare fire .45 Colt in this gun? I test-chambered .45 Colt and a .455 Webley cartridges. The former seated perfectly, extracted perfectly, and the cylinder closed as expected. However, the Webley chambered but had difficulty in extracting because of the small rim and often fell beneath the star when extracting.
I apologize but I can't figure out how to attach photos.
The top of the Bbl reads: SMITH & WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS. U.S.A.
PATENTED OCT.8.1901 DEC.17.1901 FEB.6.1906
Any help would be very much appreciated! Thanks much - MJ

 

[H Richard]

You certainly described a 455 Mk2. They were very often converted to 45 Colt, either by shaving the rear of the cylinder to allow more space for the case head, or by machining a recess for the colt case head in the cylinder. Does the rear of the cylinder still show the guns S/N? If so it wasn't shaved, but there would be a recess for the case heads. I haven't handled one, but I understand some 45 Colt may be too long and protrude from the front of the chambers. The flat nose bullets should work fine. As long as the 45 Colt is a standard load, not a +P or hot hand load, the gun will handle it o.k.
I am not totally familiar with all the markings, but most you describe do sound like the markings on the one I had, which had been converted to 38 Special by sleeving the chambers and barrel. See the picture for the various markings. Someone will be along who is more familiar with all the markings and meanings.



Enjoy that old 455 Mk2.

 

[Bohonkie]

Thanks for the reply! Yes, the chambers are recessed but not as much as, say, a Model 27. Just a light cut recess. If I do fire .45 Colt in this gun it will be low-powered cast loads only. When I tried one of mine in the chamber, it came to just short of the maximum length for the cylinder. Thanks again - mj

 

[Valmet]

As per the date, for the record I owned 35711 that was shipped to “Agents of the British Government” on Jan. 6, 1916 so yours was likely late-1915/very early 1916.

 

[StrawHat]

Another tidbit for your consideration, the cylinder on your revolver is not heat treated. That started in 1917 at the request of the US Army. So, keep your loads in the 455 pressure ranch and things should be fine.

Kevin

 

[Muley Gil]

I had a MK II that had been converted to .45 Colt. The only bullets I had were 262 grain Keith style semi wadcutters. I had to deep seat the bullets and crimp over the front band. Even so, the bullets came to the front of the cylinder.

 

[glowe]

. . . I haven't handled one, but I understand some 45 Colt may be too long and protrude from the front of the chambers. The flat nose bullets should work fine . . .

The cylinder on a 455 is 1.54" long and a 45 Colt Single Action is 1.62". The maximum OAL for loading 45 Colt is 1.6". As has been stated, any standard 45 Colt round will be fine to shoot. SAAMI states 14,000 PSI is the stated pressure max for this caliber. I only use lead bullets in these revolvers and to find out whether your revolver was rechambered, just drop a 45 Colt in the chamber. If it fits, your revolver will shoot 45 Colt and 455 caliber ammo.

S&W always relied on ship dates, not manufacture dates to determine age. Factory log books were kept and when a gun left the factory, it was logged out by date. Military contract guns are handled differently than inventoried commercial guns. They usually shipped as quickly as a given number were manufactured and were not held in the factory long. Using the SWCA database, your revolver likely shipped in December, 1915. Guns above and below your serial number shipped that month and year. 27,XXX to 32, XXX all shipped in December 1915.

I have three, one in 455, one in 45 Colt, and one in 45 ACP. Reload my own 45 ACP to lower pressures than standard to keep both pressures and velocity down to 455 levels.

 

[Absalom]

….
. The marks on this gun, appearing a various locations, are: Crossed flags; a crown with TG underneath and under the TG is the letter E and under that is I I ; also a curious looking X with a vertical line drawn straight down the center (sort of like an asterisk but without the horizontal line); and finally a sort of upward arrow. Underneath the Bbl, flat area just ahead of the cylinder, appears B - F.

To briefly explain the markings in detail:

The crossed pennants are a British military proof.
The crown over two letters/numbers over E is the Enfield inspector‘s acceptance stamp.
The II denotes 2nd model.
The upward arrow is the British military property mark, commonly known as broad arrow.

All these were applied at the same time at the Royal Small Arms Factory Enfield, prior to the gun entering service.

The X with the line through it is actually two opposing broad arrows. It cancels the single broad arrow and denotes that the gun was sold out of government stores.

The B under the barrel denotes a blued gun. The F is the one mark I can currently not place.

 

[Bohonkie]

I'm amazed at the wealth of information found on this site. Thanks, all, for your inputs. Strawhat: Now that you mention it, I seem to recall reading about the heat treating issue in John Taffin's "Book of the .45 Caliber." I'll be sure to keep that in mind. Absalom: I can see now that they are opposing arrows (one upper and one lower). They have obviously been added later in the gun's life than the other marks.
Thanks, again, everyone! mj

 

[Hondo44]

There are two known shipments of this model chambered at the factory for 45 Colt. They did not have the cartridge roll marked on the barrel or anywhere else. So that’s the dead giveaway that your gun was rechamered after the war. But it was rechambered the most proper way by recessing the chambers slightly for correctly head spacing 45 Colt and which still retains correct head space and shooting for 455!

Standard Colt loads are the same pressure as 455 at 14-15,000 PSI, so perfectly safe to shoot both in your gun.

The extractor star part circle should have a step in it unless the chambers were recessed a bit too deeply. That would cause the problem with extracting the 455 cases. But not a deal breaker; just point the muzzle up when extracting 455s.

Just FYI, these are not 1917 revolvers which only refers to the 1917 Army model 45 ACP. More accurately it’s a 455 MK II Hand Ejector-2nd Model BSR (British Service Revolver).

 

[Bohonkie]

Thanks, Hondo 44. Yes, the star extractor has the same slight recess as the chambers. The serial number and the crossed flags are still on the rear of the cylinder but maybe lighter than they would have been... dunno. When I tried a .455 in the cylinder everything fit OK except when I tried to extract, via the star, it most often worked but about 20% of the time one would fall under the star. As you said, hold the gun with the muzzle up and there is no problem.
FYI, I slugged the cylinder and bore. Cylinder is .458 and the bore is: Lands: .452 and grooves: .458. I have a Colt SAA that loves .454 bullets in the 750-850 fps range (255gr RNFP from an H&G mould). I loaded 6 into the revolver and the bullets come just shy of the cylinder mouth. They extract nicely. I think these are what I will go with.
Thanks again, mj

 

[Bohonkie]

Just a quick note: I see where Hondo44 added his S&WCA number to his signature. I tried to find out where and how to do this but am having no luck. How do I add a signature and my S&WCA number? Thanks,
Michael
S&WCA #3469

 

[glowe]

Go to your profile. Find "Customize Profile" just below and to the right of your name. In the left set of menu items, find edit signature. Change and save.

 

[Bohonkie]

Thanks, Gary. I knew it was simpler than I was making it out to be. I found in, not under profile but under "Quick Links" and "Edit Signature."
Thanks again,

 

[Bohonkie]

Well, looks like it didn't work. I'll try again.

 

[Bohonkie]

Maybe I forgot to save...

 

[Bohonkie]

Nope. Still didn't work. Oh well.
Ah... I have to click on "Show Signature"
Duh... Thx -