I wanted to ask someone who has Experience with an early model hand ejector 455 Webley that has been rechambered for 45 Long Colt . A fellow I ran into recently has one for sale .I had heard of this modification but have never been faced with it . From the outside , looks to be a nice original condition 2nd model hand ejector 455 Webley. However at some point in time the gun was rechambered for 45 Colt. It looks to have been a good job ,the chambers are nice and clean no rough areas .It is no longer a collectors piece , but the original finish is better than my 44 hand ejectors . My question is this. Even though the chambers have been altered the barrel is still original . What kind of accuracy can you get from a gun now firing colt bullets with .451 dia. , through a barrel cut for original webley .455 dia. bullets ? Is accuracy hurt by the differance ? Also How can I check to make sure the chambers were cut true and not Off center ? Does the extra metal cut from the cylinder affect strength ? Any help would be appreciated .
455 to 45 lc anybody own one if so......?
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I wanted to ask someone who has Experience with an early model hand ejector 455 Webley that has been rechambered for 45 Long Colt . A fellow I ran into recently has one for sale .I had heard of this modification but have never been faced with it . From the outside , looks to be a nice original condition 2nd model hand ejector 455 Webley. However at some point in time the gun was rechambered for 45 Colt. It looks to have been a good job ,the chambers are nice and clean no rough areas .It is no longer a collectors piece , but the original finish is better than my 44 hand ejectors . My question is this. Even though the chambers have been altered the barrel is still original . What kind of accuracy can you get from a gun now firing colt bullets with .451 dia. , through a barrel cut for original webley .455 dia. bullets ? Is accuracy hurt by the differance ? Also How can I check to make sure the chambers were cut true and not Off center ? Does the extra metal cut from the cylinder affect strength ? Any help would be appreciated .
A couple of comments from someone with a similiarly converted Webley Mark VI...
1. If your gun is lower that a Mark IV, it was originally designed for black powder, so you must load the gun more lightly.
2. Because the Webley cylinder is shorter, you must use lower OAL than most .45 Colt loads.
3. Cowboy-type loads are OK. Generally, lighter loads are more accurate.
4. 0.452" lead bullets sometimes work OK in some guns. It's better to use 0.454".
Buck
1. If your gun is lower that a Mark IV, it was originally designed for black powder, so you must load the gun more lightly.
2. Because the Webley cylinder is shorter, you must use lower OAL than most .45 Colt loads.
3. Cowboy-type loads are OK. Generally, lighter loads are more accurate.
4. 0.452" lead bullets sometimes work OK in some guns. It's better to use 0.454".
Buck
john traveler
Member
Your converted S&W should shoot just fine with .45 Colt ammunition. The model was developed during pre-US involvement in WWI, and the British were desparate for sidearms. The .45 Colt was already in production, so it made sense to chamber it for .455 Webley.
The .455 case rims are a bit thinner than .45 Colt rims, so rechambering results in a shallow counterbore in the charge hole. You can eyeball each charge hole to see if it is concentric with the chamber mouth. Properly cut chambers use a properly sized pilot to guide on the existing chamber mouth. If the chambers appear to be smoothly cut without deep annular "rings" or marks, it's probably good.
As for accuracy, most of the factory .45 Colt ammo uses lead hollow base bullets, and they work well in slightly oversized pre-WII barrels. Too, the wide and deep lands of the S&W barrel should work well even if the bullets are a bit undersized. Cylinder strength is not affected, as .455 and .45 Colt chambers are almost the same diameter. Keep in mind though, that with pre-WWI guns you have un-heatreated cylinders, and you should only fire factory or factory equivalent pressure handloads in them.
The .455 case rims are a bit thinner than .45 Colt rims, so rechambering results in a shallow counterbore in the charge hole. You can eyeball each charge hole to see if it is concentric with the chamber mouth. Properly cut chambers use a properly sized pilot to guide on the existing chamber mouth. If the chambers appear to be smoothly cut without deep annular "rings" or marks, it's probably good.
As for accuracy, most of the factory .45 Colt ammo uses lead hollow base bullets, and they work well in slightly oversized pre-WII barrels. Too, the wide and deep lands of the S&W barrel should work well even if the bullets are a bit undersized. Cylinder strength is not affected, as .455 and .45 Colt chambers are almost the same diameter. Keep in mind though, that with pre-WWI guns you have un-heatreated cylinders, and you should only fire factory or factory equivalent pressure handloads in them.
Pontiaker
Member
Yep I have one, pics of it in a thread in this forum. It shoots great, I was really surprised how well it shoots. The boring of the cylinder is a pretty basic job for a gunsmith so I would think most were done correctly. I would go for it if the price is right. If you pass on it I would love a chance at buying it. Let me know if you want some pics of mine, chambers,etc...to compare with the one your looking at. My email is listed here. Iam a custom knifemaker and also do some basic smithy work.
Matt
Matt
Alk8944
US Veteran
Coosa,
You would have to slug the barrel to determine actual diameter. If you would be handloading for it the bullets could be sized to match and accuracy should be as good as any other gun chambered for the cartridge. If you use factory .45 Colt those are usually loaded with a fairly soft bullet that actually could be any diameter up to at least .454 depending on manufacturer.
If the job was done with a proper chamber reamer, headspace with the .455 won't be affected and that can be shot in the gun too if desired.
Haggis, he said Hand-Ejector type, not Webley make. That would be a Colt New Service or S&W .44 HE (chambered for the .455). Neither was ever a black powder gun, although ammunition was loaded with black powder during that period, clear into at lest the 1930's.
You would have to slug the barrel to determine actual diameter. If you would be handloading for it the bullets could be sized to match and accuracy should be as good as any other gun chambered for the cartridge. If you use factory .45 Colt those are usually loaded with a fairly soft bullet that actually could be any diameter up to at least .454 depending on manufacturer.
If the job was done with a proper chamber reamer, headspace with the .455 won't be affected and that can be shot in the gun too if desired.
Haggis, he said Hand-Ejector type, not Webley make. That would be a Colt New Service or S&W .44 HE (chambered for the .455). Neither was ever a black powder gun, although ammunition was loaded with black powder during that period, clear into at lest the 1930's.
Thgank all of you for the replys, I will take advice when I can get it.
Haggis- soryy for the confusion but as Alk8944 pointed out I am talking about a Smith & Wesson hand ejector , not the British Webley top break revolvers .
A question about the heat treated cylinders, when did this become standard practice at S&W.
Haggis- soryy for the confusion but as Alk8944 pointed out I am talking about a Smith & Wesson hand ejector , not the British Webley top break revolvers .
A question about the heat treated cylinders, when did this become standard practice at S&W.
jd hubbard
Member
Just a note of caution - I personally ran into one (hereinafter named the 'project from Hell') that was poorly converted. I believe that the gap between cylinder and hammer or perhaps too deep a re-chambering caused misfires. There have been lots of competent jobs done from what has been said here but, some were not. FWIW
TwoGunsStanding
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I have two, both early (1915-1916) 2nd Model Hand Ejectors for the Brits (although I believe one has Canadian proofs). One came as a conversion, and I had the barrel cut to 4 inches. The second revolver came to me as a .455, and I had a very nice customizaztion done to .45 Colt, also four inch, by Kent Singletary. Both revolvers shoot standard velocity, 250 JHP's or 250 grain lead, sized to .454, equally well, with groups about 2.5-3.0 inches all afternoon if I do my job. My only consideration for keeping them running is NOT trying to make them magnums. They have older steel, and were NOT originally designed for heavy loads, so I keep velocities to 750-800 fps. If a 250 grainer at those velocities won't do it, better get a rifle or shotgun.
Kamerer
Member
1) As has been pointed out, accuracy is good if you use the correct bullets. Prior to WWII, .45LC was .454, same as .455 Webley. No problem here! Don't use "under-sized" .451 or .452 bullets.
2) Here is a picture of mine that was converted long ago. It was done not by facing the cylinder and ejector star, but by rebating the cylinders in addition to lengthening them. The barrel was re-stamped ".45<STRIKE>5</STRIKE> Long Colt" (that last five was "x'd" out on the gun) and it has no martial markings. Nicely done. If you look you can see the recessing/rebating that was machined.
3) The machining doesn't affect strength as much as the pre-heat treatment steel used. Keep it within the guidelines TwoGunsStanding was talking about.
2) Here is a picture of mine that was converted long ago. It was done not by facing the cylinder and ejector star, but by rebating the cylinders in addition to lengthening them. The barrel was re-stamped ".45<STRIKE>5</STRIKE> Long Colt" (that last five was "x'd" out on the gun) and it has no martial markings. Nicely done. If you look you can see the recessing/rebating that was machined.
3) The machining doesn't affect strength as much as the pre-heat treatment steel used. Keep it within the guidelines TwoGunsStanding was talking about.
rayb
US Veteran
I have one, purchased as a shooter on this forum from a generous forum member.
I love it. As stated it is a shooter, not a mint new in the box safe queen. A previous owner tried to mount an adjustable sight on it and widened out the rear sight groove. Now I can see the front sight clearly, and shoot it much better than I normally do with "regular" sights.
If the price is right, go for it. Great fun shooter with the "cowboy" loads or handloads.
YOur experiences and opinions may vary.
rayb
I love it. As stated it is a shooter, not a mint new in the box safe queen. A previous owner tried to mount an adjustable sight on it and widened out the rear sight groove. Now I can see the front sight clearly, and shoot it much better than I normally do with "regular" sights.
If the price is right, go for it. Great fun shooter with the "cowboy" loads or handloads.
YOur experiences and opinions may vary.
rayb
Guys thanks a bunch for the good info.
I am have always given my Hand ejectors a diet of low pressure rounds. My background in mostly in vintage sxs shotguns, and with them it is understood that no matter what the barrels were made of , the recievers were all made of the same "mild" steel. So low pressure loads will prevent problems down the road.
I thank you for answering my questions about accuracy .
Just out of my own curiosity, I would still like to know about when S&W began heat treating the cylinders . Thanks.
I am have always given my Hand ejectors a diet of low pressure rounds. My background in mostly in vintage sxs shotguns, and with them it is understood that no matter what the barrels were made of , the recievers were all made of the same "mild" steel. So low pressure loads will prevent problems down the road.
I thank you for answering my questions about accuracy .
Just out of my own curiosity, I would still like to know about when S&W began heat treating the cylinders . Thanks.
Kamerer
Member
For the K-38s, it was around s/n 316xxx I believe per the SCSW. For the N's, I've asked but never got a knowledgeable answer. I would really like to know, too. I would guess in the early 20s sometime, also.
dsf
Member
I have a 455 to 45 LC converted 2nd Model Smith HE. I've used these guys for alot of my lead bullet needs, they'll size to .454 or .455 for you. Lots of styles to chose from.
http://www.pennbullets.com/45/45-caliber.html
http://www.pennbullets.com/45/45-caliber.html
Midway lists the factory Remington lead hollow base 45 Colt bullet they use in their standard 45 Colt loads.
Per the Midway web site this bullet is sized .455 so should be a readily available proper diameter bullet for older 45 Colt and 455 Webley gun handloads.
Per the Midway web site this bullet is sized .455 so should be a readily available proper diameter bullet for older 45 Colt and 455 Webley gun handloads.
This is my very first post on this website. I have a 455 re-done in Long Colt. Bought it at at Pawn Shop in Fairbanks Alaska in 1967, It came with the legend as above about WW2, not WW! - and also had an amateurish mark - a series of punch marks in the shape of a circle, with an arrow pointing out in a northwesterly direction. I was told that that mark indicated that the gun was donated to the Canadian Government by a civilian, and so marked so that the gun may be returned to the civilian after the war.
The pistol carries a four digit serial number beginning with 5.
I had always "wondered' without much thought really how you would re chamber something at .455 to the .454 which is a smaller diameter.
It's in excellent shape, had it re-blued in the early 70's - which may remove some of it's collector value.
The pistol carries a four digit serial number beginning with 5.
I had always "wondered' without much thought really how you would re chamber something at .455 to the .454 which is a smaller diameter.
It's in excellent shape, had it re-blued in the early 70's - which may remove some of it's collector value.
Welcome to the Forum, Trane.
Can you post pictures of your revolver?
The .45 Colt cartridge, as loaded by the factories, usually used a hollow based bullet that would expand to the slightly larger bore.
Can you post pictures of your revolver?
The .45 Colt cartridge, as loaded by the factories, usually used a hollow based bullet that would expand to the slightly larger bore.
You'll enjoy a very nice gun if you get it!
S&W cylinders were first heat treated on the Model 1917 for WW I per the government contract order. After the war and resuming civilian production a S&W change order called for heat treating of all cylinders which was pretty much achieved by 1920.
You've seen the preferred technique above for re-chambering to 45 Colt by recessing the chambers. Is the gun your refer to done that way or is the serial # shaved off the rear face of the cylinder?
Just FYI: This gun was actually identified by S&W as being chambered for the 455 Mark II British Svc cartridge and would actually chamber both the Mk II and the longer Mk I. Although the cartridges were used in Webleys, "455 Webley" is not associated with S&W guns that shoot 455.
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