.455 Triple Lock value

Skizzer

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Howdy,
New to the site and excited to be able to participate.

Interested in learning more about Triple Locks and would like to eventually acquire a shooter grade. Had heard that .455's are a rarer caliber, but not as in demand. Could anyone give me an a very rough feel for how much less a .455 is worth. Realize this will be highly variable, but a crude measure for someone new to the model would be very helpful.

Thanks!
 
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I would value a Triple Lock in .455 Webley a solid 25% less than a counterpart in .44 S & W Special.

If you want a "shooter" and a Triple Lock and like the .455 Webley, I would suggest you consider a .455 Webley with chambers altered to accept .45 Colt. These can be acquired, with decent condition, in the $850 range. Note that these modified revolvers can also accept .45 ACP, except that you don't want to fire these in a Triple Lock as they are too powerful for a Triple Lock revolver.
 
Welcome to the Forum.

I agree to the 25% lower value of a .455 Triple Lock over the more common .44 Special. That said, I would like to some day find a .455 TL in .455 Webley or one converted to .45 Colt, to go with my .44 Special TL.

Many years ago, I passed on a .455 TL that had been converted to .45 ACP. The price was only $135. I had the money in my pocket, but the rent was due. :( I did the responsible thing and passed on it. :( I shoulda bought it and begged and/or borrowed the rent money. Ah, 20/20 hindsight.

At that time, I was not aware of the difference in the chamber pressures between the .455 and the .45 ACP.

Click on this link and there are two sections on Triple Locks-one under the .44 Special and one under the .455.

Notable Thread Index
 
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Welcome to the Forum.

I agree to the 25% lower value of a .455 Triple Lock over the more common .44 Special. That said, I would like to some day find a .455 TL in .455 Webley or one converted to .45 Colt, to go with my .44 Special TL.

Many years ago, I passed on a .455 TL that had been converted to .45 ACP. The price was only $135. I had the money in my pocket, but the rent was due. :( I did the responsible thing and passed on it. :( I shoulda bought it and begged and/or borrowed the rent money. Ah, 20/20 hindsight.

At that time, I was not aware of the difference in the chamber pressures between the .455 and the .45 ACP.

Click on this link and there are two sections on Triple Locks-one under the .44 Special and one under the .455.

Notable Thread Index

$135 = Rent or $135 = Triple Lock ? Me and the Triple Lock would have spent some time camped under a bridge if needed .
 
Skizzer, welcome to the forum.

I agree with members above on the estimates for a 455 TL.

However, I'll add that the 25% differential will vary with condition. In the best condition, I see prices varying a great deal more with 44 TLs going for many thousands. While the 455 TLs can get expensive they'll
usually top out below ~$3000.

We see most shooter grade 455s under $1100 or so and down to half of that if converted to 45 Colt or 45 ACP and 45 Auto Rim.

If you find one and have time, take a photo and post it here. We'll be happy to evaluate it and comment on the price.

Would you rather find one already converted to a more common cartridge?
 
I would value a Triple Lock in .455 Webley a solid 25% less than a counterpart in .44 S & W Special.

If you want a "shooter" and a Triple Lock and like the .455 Webley, I would suggest you consider a .455 Webley with chambers altered to accept .45 Colt. These can be acquired, with decent condition, in the $850 range. Note that these modified revolvers can also accept .45 ACP, except that you don't want to fire these in a Triple Lock as they are too powerful for a Triple Lock revolver.

Thanks very much for the info. Just what I needed to help me plan, as well as gauge potential purchases. I did not know that .45 ACP had significantly higher pressure than a .455, not that I know much about .455's.

I'd be happy w/a .455 or any other TL cal for a shooter, altho I confess a slight preference for the .44.
 
Welcome to the Forum.

I agree to the 25% lower value of a .455 Triple Lock over the more common .44 Special. That said, I would like to some day find a .455 TL in .455 Webley or one converted to .45 Colt, to go with my .44 Special TL.

Many years ago, I passed on a .455 TL that had been converted to .45 ACP. The price was only $135. I had the money in my pocket, but the rent was due. :( I did the responsible thing and passed on it. :( I shoulda bought it and begged and/or borrowed the rent money. Ah, 20/20 hindsight.

At that time, I was not aware of the difference in the chamber pressures between the .455 and the .45 ACP.

Click on this link and there are two sections on Triple Locks-one under the .44 Special and one under the .455.

Notable Thread Index

Thanks for the advice - much appreciated! Heartbreaker on your .455 tale, but certainly wish I had that strength of character! I too didn't realize the .45 ACP pressure would be that high. What about the .45 Colt? I'll look it up, but would have thought if the ACP was a problem then the "Long Colt" would be too. Thanks also for suggesting the links - good info!
 
Skizzer, welcome to the forum.

I agree with members above on the estimates for a 455 TL.

However, I'll add that the 25% differential will vary with condition. In the best condition, I see prices varying a great deal more with 44 TLs going for many thousands. While the 455 TLs can get expensive they'll
usually top out below ~$3000.

We see most shooter grade 455s under $1100 or so and down to half of that if converted to 45 Colt or 45 ACP and 45 Auto Rim.

If you find one and have time, take a photo and post it here. We'll be happy to evaluate it and comment on the price.

Would you rather find one already converted to a more common cartridge?

Jim,
Thanks for additional points on value. All this is very helpful to me and awfully difficult (slow) to glean from just watching auctions and scanning the few TL's offered elsewhere.

i'm still forming my preferences on TL's, but at this point would be happy w/about any caliber. That said, always prefer the most original I can get, but I am only after a shooter.

What are your thots on pressure levels of the various available calibers, original or not, for the TL? Since I understand we're dealing w/cylinders lacking any special heat treatment I assume some additional caution might be indicated?

Really appreciate the help.

Mike
 
Thanks for the advice - much appreciated! Heartbreaker on your .455 tale, but certainly wish I had that strength of character! I too didn't realize the .45 ACP pressure would be that high. What about the .45 Colt? I'll look it up, but would have thought if the ACP was a problem then the "Long Colt" would be too. Thanks also for suggesting the links - good info!

The 45 ACP was designed to reliably cycle the 1911 45 auto slide; about 20,000 PSI. To allow it's use in the S&W Model 1917, the cyl was heat treated. All S&W cyls were heat treated by 1920.

So that's the issue with the TL 455s. The 455, 45 Colt (standard factory loadings), and 45 Auto Rim (also 44 Spl) are all only 15,000 PSI max.

If one reloads 45 ACP, the pressure just needs to be kept to 15,000 or less and can be used safely in a converted 455.

Just FYI: Having said all that above, many 455s have been converted to 45 ACP and shot with hard ball. I've never heard of any catastrophic failures. But the damage doesn't have to be explosive, it's usually accumulated damage over time resulting in stretched chambers, frames, loose guns, etc. Therefore I recommend against it and wouldn't do it with my gun.
 
Skizzer, welcome to the forum.

I agree with members above on the estimates for a 455 TL.

However, I'll add that the 25% differential will vary with condition. In the best condition, I see prices varying a great deal more with 44 TLs going for many thousands. While the 455 TLs can get expensive they'll
usually top out below ~$3000.

We see most shooter grade 455s under $1100 or so and down to half of that if converted to 45 Colt or 45 ACP and 45 Auto Rim.

If you find one and have time, take a photo and post it here. We'll be happy to evaluate it and comment on the price.

Would you rather find one already converted to a more common cartridge?


jIM,

Meant to especially thank you for the offer of checking-out potential purchases I'm considering. That would be particularly helpful! Again, much appreciated!

Mike
 
Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! I perceive a higher differential between the .44 and .455 triple locks. The 44s seem to be about 2-3 times what a .455 goes for. That may be because most of what I've seen over the last 4-5 years were modified guns...mostly for .45 Colt. The type of conversion may also play a part with the quick and dirty shave the cylinder face bringing less than the cylinder chambers being counter sunk for .45 Colt so .45 Webley can still be shot. Nevertheless, I'm proud that I bought my .455 a few years back. May have paid too soon but not too much.


wiregrassguy-albums-large-frame-revolvers-2-a-picture13642-triplelock1.jpg
 
I recently purchased a triple lock 455 that was finished challenged but had a perfect bore, timing and lock up. I paid $1500 and don't regret it. To me being a reloader and bullet caster there is no big difference in in a 44 and a 455. I made cases from 45 Colt by reducing the length and thinning the rims. I shoot this gun frequently and do about as well as I do with any of my other N frames (85-90 on the 25 yard slow fire target).
 
I recently purchased a triple lock 455 that was finished challenged but had a perfect bore, timing and lock up. I paid $1500 and don't regret it. To me being a reloader and bullet caster there is no big difference in in a 44 and a 455. I made cases from 45 Colt by reducing the length and thinning the rims. I shoot this gun frequently and do about as well as I do with any of my other N frames (85-90 on the 25 yard slow fire target).

I don't have any .455 cartridge cases to compare with, but you might try some .45 Cowboy brass to trim. They are shorter than .45 Colt cases.
 
Welcome, Skizzer, to the best gun forum I've ever found.

As you've already seen, there are a lot of fine, very knowledgeable people here who are glad to help.

Stick with us, you'll be glad you did.
 
PS. My 455 TL has been reamed to 45 colt using recesses so the larger OD 455 cases still work. Also have a 2nd model 455. Neither will be leaving my safe soon.
 

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Keep in mind that .455 triple locks were primarily a British WWI issued pistol and they can have substantial value beyond that of a normal triple lock. They will be found, more often than not, with British unit markings to include machine gun and air corps units.
 
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The 45 ACP was designed to reliably cycle the 1911 45 auto slide; about 20,000 PSI. To allow it's use in the S&W Model 1917, the cyl was heat treated. All S&W cyls were heat treated by 1920.

So that's the issue with the TL 455s. The 455, 45 Colt (standard factory loadings), and 45 Auto Rim (also 44 Spl) are all only 15,000 PSI max.

If one reloads 45 ACP, the pressure just needs to be kept to 15,000 or less and can be used safely in a converted 455.

Just FYI: Having said all that above, many 455s have been converted to 45 ACP and shot with hard ball. I've never heard of any catastrophic failures. But the damage doesn't have to be explosive, it's usually accumulated damage over time resulting in stretched chambers, frames, loose guns, etc. Therefore I recommend against it and wouldn't do it with my gun.



Thx Jim! That does clear things up.

Mike
 
S&W .44 HE 1st MOD TRIPLE LOCK .455 COMMERCIAL just sold for $2,825 on GB. S&W .44 HE 1st MOD TRIPLE LOCK .455 COMMERCIAL C&R - Revolvers at GunBroker.com : 806511892

This one is mine, refinished but in original .455 caliber. Gun show purchase in January 2014 for $1,200. She's purdy nice, even with the blue thumb latch.
View attachment 393868 View attachment 393869


Yeah, I was watching that one. Stayed at $805 forever. Was tempted to bid, but figured it was too good to be true... and it was! The "Woodlawn Boyz" are finding an AWFUL lot of TL's!

Congrats on your TL! That's a beaut alright!
 
Keep in mind that .455 triple locks were primarily a British WWI issued pistol and they can have substantial value beyond that of a normal triple lock. They will be found, more often than not, with British unit markings to include machine gun and air corps units.



Good pt - thx!
 
Welcome, Skizzer, to the best gun forum I've ever found.

As you've already seen, there are a lot of fine, very knowledgeable people here who are glad to help.

Stick with us, you'll be glad you did.


I can certainly see that and they've helped me a bunch already! Really appreciated! Glad I decided to seek help and knowledge here! Thanks!
 
I recently purchased a triple lock 455 that was finished challenged but had a perfect bore, timing and lock up. I paid $1500 and don't regret it. To me being a reloader and bullet caster there is no big difference in in a 44 and a 455. I made cases from 45 Colt by reducing the length and thinning the rims. I shoot this gun frequently and do about as well as I do with any of my other N frames (85-90 on the 25 yard slow fire target).


Good to know - thx.
 
Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! I perceive a higher differential between the .44 and .455 triple locks. The 44s seem to be about 2-3 times what a .455 goes for. That may be because most of what I've seen over the last 4-5 years were modified guns...mostly for .45 Colt. The type of conversion may also play a part with the quick and dirty shave the cylinder face bringing less than the cylinder chambers being counter sunk for .45 Colt so .45 Webley can still be shot. Nevertheless, I'm proud that I bought my .455 a few years back. May have paid too soon but not too much.


wiregrassguy-albums-large-frame-revolvers-2-a-picture13642-triplelock1.jpg

That's a fine lookin piece! Thx for sharin and fer the info!
 
S&W .44 HE 1st MOD TRIPLE LOCK .455 COMMERCIAL just sold for $2,825 on GB. S&W .44 HE 1st MOD TRIPLE LOCK .455 COMMERCIAL C&R - Revolvers at GunBroker.com : 806511892

This one is mine, refinished but in original .455 caliber. Gun show purchase in January 2014 for $1,200. She's purdy nice, even with the blue thumb latch.
View attachment 393868 View attachment 393869

Wow, even though it's not according to S&W protocol, whoever did that prep and plating did expert work!

The woodlawnboys 44 1st Model TL Coml .455, albeit not a military collectible, is what I'd consider the queen mother of .455s to have. A Type 4 of the 4 various 455 versions below. This actually reflects updated information from Roy Jinks than he knew in 2004 as the stated history in the letters and notes shown in the auction:

THEY ARE:

1. ".44 HE - 1st Model", 'Triple Lock', chambered for .455: 812* factory reconfigured unassembled or unsold ".44 Spl HE 1st Models", original chamberings unknown but most or all were likely originally .44 Spl. For the British military there are 666 #s 1104 thru 10417 (obviously not all serial #s in this range were used for the 666), the majority shipped Oct 21, 1914. The extra 146 in serial range #s 9858-10007 went to the commercial market; 123 to England Oct 1,1914, and 23 in the US Jan 1, 1918 [N&J pgs. 203-205]. These 812 .455 TLs were serial #'d in the .44 1st Model serial # range of 1104 to 10417. Per Neal & Jinks. Pg. 214, these are known to have been stamped SMITH & WESSON but not including the 455 cal. stamp.

* SCSW reports "over 800", but by shipped serial # count, it's actually 812, 146 of which are commercial guns [S&W N&J pgs. 203 - 205].

The 666 were shipped in 33 different groups ranging from 4/8/14 to 4/28/16 with the majority delivered 10/21/14. These will often have added lanyard swivels when converted to 455 at the factory by drilling thru the serial # which is factory re-stamped on the left side of the grip frame under the stock.

The 146 .44 HE 1st Models that were converted/built as .455s assembled some time after the first 666 military .44 1st Model .455 TLs and sold commercially; 123 were sold to the British, shipped to Wilkinson Sword 10/1/14 and 23 sold in the US, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis, MO. on 1/1/1918.

The 23 at some point were converted to .45 Colt and it's unknown if by the factory before shipment to Shapleigh or after delivery to Shapleigh. However even IF converted by the factory (as suggested in a September 2013 Rock Island gun auction narrative), the revolvers would not have a star on the butt or a rework date on the grip frame because they did not go back to the factory for conversion as rework, they were converted before they left the factory.

2. ".455 Mark II HE - 1st Model TL" in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to ~5800* assembled 1914-15. Thus creating 64** duplicate serial #s with the 666 1st version in #1. above in the ".44 HE 1st Model TL" .455 conversion serial number range.
*Previously reported as 5461. "The .455 H.E. First Model 5462 is in the last shipment [1915] of the model for the British Government. After this shipment there were some of this model sold commercially. The serial number range actually goes to 5800 including the commercially shipped guns. Since the factory did not keep any records of the cut off at the end of a model change, it has taken years to put together all the data to obtain the correct serial ranges. I have to tell you that in the game of collecting S&W's for 50 years I still am learning about various models and changes I did not think were possible when I started this research." Roy 8/25/18
http://smith-wessonforum.com/swca-q...1st-model-discovery-puzzle.html#post140145422

**There are 64 duplicates of TL #s of the existing 666 contract listed numbers of .44 HE 1st Model TLs factory converted to .455 (1st version above), #s 1104-5755 in the .44 HE # range (not all inclusive, known and listed [S&W 1857 – 1945 pgs. 204-205]), with 64 of the .455 HE 1st Model TLs (2nd version) #s 1 to 5800 in the Brit contract # range.

There can be ~ 4988 .44 TLs duplicated serial #s with .455 TLs.

There's also duplicate #s of the .44 HE 1st Model TL .455s #5801 to #15375 (the last .44 HE 1st Model TL serial # known), of ~796 with .455 HE 2nd Models (3rd version) #s 5801 up thru #10007 in the Brit range, but the exact #s of duplicates is unknown because not all #s are known to have been used in either range.


3. ".455 Mark II HE - 2nd Model" (sans extractor barrel shroud and 3rd lock), but with cylinder pin hole reduced .020" and the Ext Rod is reduced .020" in diameter (Neal & Jinks Pg. 215-16) from versions 1. the ".44 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" factory converted to .455, and 2. the ".455 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" produced in .455. This version was referred to as the MK II revolver by the British and stamped 'II' by them, left side frame.

The 2nd Model continued in the .455 1st Model TL Brit serial range beginning ~#5801 (previously thought to be 5462) to #74755, shipped 1915-17.

By Feb 1916 724 were manufactured for the Canadians, chambered in 45 Colt, without a cartridge roll mark on barrel, presumed for the RCMP [H of S&W, pg. 203].

Another 15 in 45 Colt were sold commercially in 1916; likely "over run" guns from the above order.

The Canadian military also bought 14,500 .455 2nd Models [H of S&W, pg. 203].

And 1105 2nd Models were released for commercial sales in the US, shipped Dec 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis [S&W, N&J pg. 216].


4. ".44 HE - 1st Model", 'Triple Lock', again, originally factory converted to .455. "As the Brit contracts were finishing up in [April, H of S&W pg. 203] 1916, S&W found enough [44 HE frames and 455] parts to build 691 .44 HE 1st Model [per Roy Jinks in various letters], Triple Lock frames [like #1. above also chambered in .455]. These guns are numbered in the .44 Spl serial number series. I have no idea why they were not just numbered in the .455 series. Perhaps it was .455 barrels and cylinders that the factory found, and they simply turned again to existing 44 HE 1st Model TL frames to use them up. They were sold commercially." Lee Jarrett

11/3/15 "In April, 1916, the Factory found enough parts to assemble 691 Triple Lock 455s. They were assembled from April to Oct of 1916. They were numbered [late] in the 44 HE series. All I have seen are numbered from the 12,000 to 14,000's. [in 1916 and 1917 - 325 were sold to Shapleigh Hardware Co. and some to Simmons Hardware Co., St. Louis, MO]
Some letter as being commercial sales, but I have long suspected that S&W simply slid many into the last of the British shipments at the standard price for the 455-2nd Models. I say that because I have observed several now with Brit ordnance marks and/or commercial proofs." Lee Jarrett

At least one #12609 of those we know of was shipped to Montreal, Canada in Nov 1916 per Lee. See letter here: The Young LT's Triple Lock .455
 
Keep in mind that .455 triple locks were primarily a British WWI issued pistol and they can have substantial value beyond that of a normal triple lock. They will be found, more often than not, with British unit markings to include machine gun and air corps units.

How does one go about deciphering these British markings? What reference do you recommend? Also, how to tell if it's British or Canadian?

Thx
 
Thx very much Jim, you've come thru again! Very impressive list.

Mike
 

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