50 yard accuracy with 158 SWC bullets

[CheyenneBodie]

I shoot NRA Action Pistol in the Production Division. Guns I use are a 6 inch M14 with full lug barrel and a 6 inch M686. For Action Pistol the AP-1 target has an X-Ring 4 inches in diameter, a 10 Ring 8 inches in diameter and an 8 ring which is 12 inches in diameter so -- for my game if a .38 load can't hold the X-Ring at 50 yards then it's not worth shooting.

For testing I mounted a red dot sight and used a sandbag rest. I've been experimenting with some 158 gr SWC bullets at 50 yards and the results are not satisfactory --3 shot groups average 8 to 14 inches.

I've tried Bayou, Missouri, and Brazos 158 grain SWC bullets sized at .358 with HiTek coating with Bullseye, N320, Titegroup and Federal primers. Velocities in the 775 to 850 FPS range.

In comparison -- off a sandbag rest with a red dot sight Zero 125 gr JHP with N320 at 1000 FPS holds the X-Ring with 2 inch groups.

Has anyone else had similar experience with poor accuracy at long range with the 158 gr lead SWC? Any suggestions to make them group better?

 

[smithra_66]

Are they beveled base bullets? I never get good results with those. A lot of times commercial casters use them because they are easier to cast and easier to load for the end user. They work great for plinking but straight base bullets are far better for precision work in my experience.

I've had great luck with Accurate molds 173 gr. Keith bullet and their copy of the Lyman 358477 150 gr. The key is to match the bullet diameter to what your gun likes, and also find the alloy that it likes. Also, great lube is needed. With commercial cast bullets what they call lube is basically just cheap wax. I use SPG lube which is fantastic and keeps the bore in perfect shape.

One of my guns groups best with Lyman #2 alloy at .357", and another likes 20-1 alloy and .358". You can also weigh each bullet and segregate those that are out of spec.

If you don't cast your own, it will be MUCH easier to make your gun group best with jacketed bullets, unfortunately.

 

[rockquarry]

I don't do well at 50yds. Bullseye style but am still trying. The problem doesn't seem to be bullets. I don't use coated bullets, only conventionally lubed cast bullets that I cast. I prefer the H&G #51, a 160 grain SWC design. Bullets are fairly soft. Have you tried conventionally lubed bullets for comparison?

 

[Dennis2149]

I do most of my shooting off the bench at 50 yards. I like the Missouri Hi-Tech coated leads .358. I've found the RN edges the SWC in accuracy out of my 38/44 Outdoorsman. Unique propellant does the job for me.

 

[KSK]

Yes. I have found most cast 158 grain SWC loads at .38 Special velocities to be not very accurate at 50 yards. Changing to swaged lead 158 grain SWC bullets improved groups considerably. I have had particularly good results with Magnus swaged 158 grain SWC bullets.

 

[Fishinfool]

It's been my experience that a cast lead bullet can be just as accurate as a jacketed bullet, but often is not. There are a variety of reasons, some of which smithra 66 commented on above.

Things like lube choice, bore / throat fit, casting voids, bullet mold alignment, consistency, etc. all contribute to less than steller accuracy.

If it were me, I would make sure my cast bullets fit my throats properly. I would measure and weigh each for consistency, and separate as needed. I'd experiment with several different powder, and velocities. I have shot bullets that performed poorly at say 750 fps, but tightened right up at 850 or more fps. Cast bullets are capable of 4 inch or less groups out of a quality revolver at 50 yards, but it takes some work to make it happen.

In the short term, it might be easier to stick with the proven jacketed load at 50 yards if possible, and use your cast stuff for the closer stages if it is sufficiently accurate.

I routinely get sub 2 inch 25 yard, and sub 4 inch 50 yard cast bullet groups out of my .44's and .45's, usually with non coated, SPG lubed home cast, and lots of load development.

Larry

 

[Eddietruett]

Try Ozark Trail Laser Cast. They by far are the most accurate SWC IN ALL MY 1911’S. The other suggestion is GT Bullets. You can get them in several diameters but you need to slug your barrel first. For all my lead bullet loads I always wind up back with the old faithful Bullseye powder. Doing some testing with CFE pistol and having great results but the jury is still out

 

[cowboy4evr]

I would use these 3 for long distance shooting . EK's 173 gr swc is my first choice and a stellar performer at esp long distance . 2nd is Accurate Molds plain base version of the Ray Thompson bullet , 2 crimp grooves ( Lyman 358156 ) is the gas checked version . 3rd is an old Ideal / Lyman mold 358432 in a 160 gr WC , yes a Wad cutter . It does well in a 357 load , weighs 160 grs and isn't seated deep like other wadcutters . Sadly it was discontinued many years ago but they do turn up from time to time . NOE makes a version . I lucked out and bought an original IDEAL 4 cav iron mold . It has performed better than I can describe . It doesn't sound like you are a caster . Save your $ , don't buy " others " bullets , cast your own and I highly recommend EK's swc for what you are wanting . Tom @ Accurate molds , NOE molds and MP molds are my recommendations for EK's swc . I have an old Lyman 2 cav that works well but it did require a trip back to get the diameter corrected . Good luck , Regards Paul

 

[6string]

The issue goes far beyond "brand name" consumer-minded considerations.
("Gee Alice, whay detergent gets your dishes so bright?")

Have you weighed these bullets? Have you measured their actual diameter (with a micrometer, not a dial caliper)?

You don't mention your particular gun specs, ie: throat diameters, bore diameter, presence of thread choke (or not?), etc.
Once you know that, you can then tune your reloading dies to match (with consideration given to the type of brass you use) so you're not ruining your bullets.

Without this info, you won't know where to begin as far as selecting a bullet, especially a cast lead bullet(!), is concerned.

 

[SmithSwede]

Here are some suggestions from a long time Bullseye pistol shooter who is NRA Distinguished Revolver.

Do you have to shoot SWC? In my Ransom rest testing, RNL always outperformed SWC. With RNL, it was not difficult to get 2.5” or less 10 shot groups at 50 yards.

I used Lyman 358311. Cast with wheel weights.

S&W revolvers are not like Colts. S&W likes fat bullets, cast 0.359” or more.

For lube I use 50% beeswax and 50% wheel bearing grease. It is soft and sticky.

Cases, primers, and powder doesn’t seem to matter. I got great groups with Bullseye, 231, Titegroup, etc. You just need to get them to fly about 775 fps with a 6” barrel.

Go with soft lead, soft lube, fat bullets with a plain base. Don’t waste your time with hard cast, 0.357”, blue wax lubed bevel base commercial bullets.

Once you find a bullet that works, do NOT clean the barrel. It won’t rust with your soft waxy greasy lube. But my Ransom Rest testing showed it takes 25-35 rounds to “settle” a barrel back to good grouping if you cleaned the barrel back to bright shiny cleanness. Don’t clean it! When you get into the 2.5” zone, leave it alone.

 

[rockquarry]

Here are some suggestions from a long time Bullseye pistol shooter who is NRA Distinguished Revolver.

Do you have to shoot SWC? In my Ransom rest testing, RNL always outperformed SWC. With RNL, it was not difficult to get 2.5” or less 10 shot groups at 50 yards.

I used Lyman 358311. Cast with wheel weights.

S&W revolvers are not like Colts. S&W likes fat bullets, cast 0.359” or more.

For lube I use 50% beeswax and 50% wheel bearing grease. It is soft and sticky.

Cases, primers, and powder doesn’t seem to matter. I got great groups with Bullseye, 231, Titegroup, etc. You just need to get them to fly about 775 fps with a 6” barrel.

Go with soft lead, soft lube, fat bullets with a plain base. Don’t waste your time with hard cast, 0.357”, blue wax lubed bevel base commercial bullets.

Once you find a bullet that works, do NOT clean the barrel. It won’t rust with your soft waxy greasy lube. But my Ransom Rest testing showed it takes 25-35 rounds to “settle” a barrel back to good grouping if you cleaned the barrel back to bright shiny cleanness. Don’t clean it! When you get into the 2.5” zone, leave it alone.

I don't recall ever trying the #358311 design at 50 yards, but your positive comments may make such a project worth doing. At 25 yards, the accuracy I've seen with this bullet have been good, about the same as the H&G #51 SWC at that distance.

I realize 50 yard shooting is very different from 25 yard shooting and easily separates good loads from mediocre or poor ones.

 

[WR Moore]

Once you find a bullet that works, do NOT clean the barrel. It won’t rust with your soft waxy greasy lube. But my Ransom Rest testing showed it takes 25-35 rounds to “settle” a barrel back to good grouping if you cleaned the barrel back to bright shiny cleanness. Don’t clean it! When you get into the 2.5” zone, leave it alone.

Definitely the case even if you swap from jacketed to lead or t' other way around.

It was with a .44, but I've had outstanding performance with hard cast SWC with square base-even at 100 yards. Just for grins & giggles, try a small batch of Berry THPs. While I haven't shot them at 50 yards, even doubling my 25 yard groups keeps you well inside the X ring. My personal suspicion has more to do with the coating on the bullet, but I'll bow to the experience of those above.

"Action" pistol target with an X ring?????????? OK, it's a game.

Added edit: Come to think of it, try the regular flat point Berry's. In 9 mm I've hovering close to 1" at 25 yards. From prone with a red dot sight.

 

[Model19man]

Try Ozark Trail Laser Cast. They by far are the most accurate SWC IN ALL MY 1911’S. The other suggestion is GT Bullets. You can get them in several diameters but you need to slug your barrel first. For all my lead bullet loads I always wind up back with the old faithful Bullseye powder. Doing some testing with CFE pistol and having great results but the jury is still out

I cannot find Ozark Trail bullets.

 

[gwpercle]

Handloading accurate 50 yard ammo is tough ...
The problem may lie in your reloading ... the steps you take how you preform the steps , case expansion for bullet seating , seating the bullet without sizing it doiwn in the case , undersized bullets will drive you nuts trying to figure out where they come from . Seating bulets in one step ... crimping in a seperate step ... most importantly ... powder charging ...\
the powder charges Must be extremely consistent .
I would buy some factory loaded lead 158 gr. ammo , test them and see ... is it my handloads or...?
I've been working on castin bullets and loading accurate 38 specal ammo for a good 50 years ... and It's tough to do !
Gopod Luck ... Load Safe ,
Gary

 

[BE Mike]

If I were going to eliminate things that were not aiding accuracy, I'd start with the bullet. Coated bullets are all the rage, but not if you are looking for exceptional accuracy at 50 yards. Old PPC shooters used to get exceptional accuracy with lead bullets and newer "Precision" revolver shooters are causing a resurgence in interest. You really need to pick the minds of ones who know, if you can find them. You might start with joining Bullseye-L Forum

 

[rwsmith]

After reading all this......

...I'm going to lay in some bullets for accuracy. My go to bullets have been Missouri coated SWCs. Since I'm not the greatest pistol shooter, I've attributed inaccuracy to my ineptness. MAYBE I can improve scores with better bullets.

What do you all think of heavy plated RN bullets? Or would it be better just to get some FMJ RNs? I got some heavy plated 9mm bullets one time for a 'project' that didn't concern accuracy, but I was impressed by them nonetheless.

This is going to be an interesting project. Between my 6" 686 and my Ruger PPC maybe I can improve accuracy at close ranges and beyond.

 

[WR Moore]

I wouldn't bother with the thick plate bullets*. I added an edit above to note that with Berrys flat points in 9 mm I can get real close to 1 inch at 25 yards. With a red dot and from prone. Iron sighted handguns and I don't get along at 25 yards-and beyond-anymore if we're talking about itty-bitty groups.

* I haven't noted any ill effects with the standard plate at around 1250 f/s. I expect a lot of the alleged drama around plated bullets has to do with the quality and the thickness of the plating.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Many Moons ago, I sent a lot of 148 & 158 lead, down range at our outdoor range
and found out that the factory ammo was not the best for 50 yard targets, even with a 6" barrel, off hand.

Shooting at a steel pig at 100 yards was very interresting.
The 158 would hit about five feet short, in the dirt and the 148 would
strike the dirt about 20 yards short of the target.

A 357 magnum load would hit at POA.

Good luck finding the right loads.

 

[CheyenneBodie]

Many thanks to all for the excellent advice and guidance! For reference I did weigh two sets of cast bullets to look at the amount of deviation -- picked out 10 bullets and weighed each one here are the results:

BRAZOS 158 grain SWC Hi Tek Coated

161.0
161.7
161.3
160.7
160.7
161.6
160.8
161.0
161.1
160.8

BAYOU 158 Grain SWC Hi Tek Coated

156.9
155.9
156.4
155.7
157.0
155.9
156.9
156.5
156.4
155.9

For now my Bianchi Cup load will most likely be the Zero 125 gr JHP behind N320 powder and Federal Primer at between 950 and 1000 FPS so it makes 120 Power Factor. When shooting standing offhand (Im at the age now where hitting the deck in prone position under the time limits imposed is becoming very difficult) on the 50 yard stage of the NRA Action Pistol Practical Course I need to have the self confidence that if I do my job the bullets will land in the 8 inch diameter 10 ring.

The 158's appear to work OK up to 25 yards -- beyond that they're not too good.

 

[Chuck Edwards]

Yes. I have found most cast 158 grain SWC loads at .38 Special velocities to be not very accurate at 50 yards. Changing to swaged lead 158 grain SWC bullets improved groups considerably. I have had particularly good results with Magnus swaged 158 grain SWC bullets.

I agree that you should try swaged bullets. Back when I was an active IDPA shooter I used thousands of Zero’s swaged RNLs over 4.1 grains of Titegroup and they would hold 1.5” at 25 yards from my M67-1. They ran ~830 fps from the 4” barrel and didn’t lead. With a 6” barrel and a lower power factor you could back off the charge a good bit.

I understand why you want the SWCs, but if the RNs shoot better they might be a better choice.