AJ
US Veteran
Has anybody tried 148 grain Hollow Based Wadcutters at 50 yards? They do the job well at 25 yards out of my PPC revolver ( a Combat master piece). Our range does not have a 50 yard range or I would try them myself.
50 yard accuracy with 158 SWC bullets
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smithra_66
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Plated bullets are the worst of all types for accuracy. They aren't hard like jacketed bullets, but they are just a little harder than lead bullets. They don't seem to grip the rifling like the other two.
I used them for action pistol but never bullseye work.
I was a bad boy.....
One time I was by myself at the outdoor range and I was playing 'mortar' with wadcutters out of a snub. I was dropping them pretty close to the target at 75 yards.
One time I was by myself at the outdoor range and I was playing 'mortar' with wadcutters out of a snub. I was dropping them pretty close to the target at 75 yards.
One time I was by myself at the outdoor range and I was playing 'mortar' with wadcutters out of a snub. I was dropping them pretty close to the target at 75 yards.
I have lined up my rear sight at the base of my front sight
for maximum range targets with loads that were under powered
or needed more elevation, to get near a traget, past it's abilities.
However I only did if on paper or "Pest" that did not hurt, if the shot went wild.
;which happened a lot, when passing the "Green light" target area.
While we've been concentrating on bullets, another factor has crossed my mind: velocity. Waay back in the last century I was gifted a couple of boxes of the new Winchester target .45 ACP loaded with a 200 gr SWC bullet at 710 f/s and told it was the cats pajamas for target work.
Back in those days I could group 5 rounds at 25 yards in 2.5 inches one handed with my handloads using Speers 200 gr lead SWC. I was lucky to stay in the black with the magic factory rounds. I started wondering if it was the loads, so I pulled down some of the factory ammo and reloaded the same cases with the factory bullet but my powder charge. I was now back to good groups.
I no longer recall what my powder charge was, but it was faster than the factory stuff. The slower velocity allowed my poor follow through enough time to wobble off dead center. Moral of the story being that powder puff loads sometimes aren't the solution.
Added: PPC shooters used wadcutters at 50 yards, but the guns that did best had a different twist than the S&W 1-18.75. 1-10 was popular.
Back in those days I could group 5 rounds at 25 yards in 2.5 inches one handed with my handloads using Speers 200 gr lead SWC. I was lucky to stay in the black with the magic factory rounds. I started wondering if it was the loads, so I pulled down some of the factory ammo and reloaded the same cases with the factory bullet but my powder charge. I was now back to good groups.
I no longer recall what my powder charge was, but it was faster than the factory stuff. The slower velocity allowed my poor follow through enough time to wobble off dead center. Moral of the story being that powder puff loads sometimes aren't the solution.
Added: PPC shooters used wadcutters at 50 yards, but the guns that did best had a different twist than the S&W 1-18.75. 1-10 was popular.
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I don't shoot .38 swc's at 50 yards, so I have nothing useful to contribute.
As an observation, it seems odd that both of your revolvers behave the same way. Excuse my ignorance, but why not just shoot the jacketed bullets that group well? Is SWC lead a requirement?
I have a lot of experience shooting big bore revolvers at 50 and 100 yards (when I was younger). Unfortunately none of it is relevant to your situation.
Lastly, make sure the brinell hardness of your bullets are proper for the chamber pressure of your loads. Good luck and good shooting.
Ray
As an observation, it seems odd that both of your revolvers behave the same way. Excuse my ignorance, but why not just shoot the jacketed bullets that group well? Is SWC lead a requirement?
I have a lot of experience shooting big bore revolvers at 50 and 100 yards (when I was younger). Unfortunately none of it is relevant to your situation.
Lastly, make sure the brinell hardness of your bullets are proper for the chamber pressure of your loads. Good luck and good shooting.
Ray
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The lighter loads sometimes shed enough velocity at 50 yards to destabilize. It would be interesting to know how well the OP's loads shoot at 25 yards.
AJ
US Veteran
Answered my own question by reading a article in the newest "Guns" magazine. They have an article on the S&W 52's. In the article it states the S&W accuracy requirement was a 5 shot group in 2 inches at 50 yards. If I could do that now I would be ecstatic! 40 years ago I could probably have done that, but not now!!
Protocall_Design
Member
The main problem here is the factory twist rate of 1 in 18-3/4. The factory barrel for light target loads (700 to 850 fps) is borderline too slow. That's why all the PPC guns that had to shoot small groups at 50 yd. had a custom barrel with 1 in 10 or 1 in 14, or a Python barrel with 1 in 14. The slow bullets spin down below the needed stabilizing RPM before 50 yards in a factory barrel. They start out spinning faster and stay above the minimum in a tighter twist barrel. The heaviest bullets are best for long distance (180 for .357, 300 for .44, etc.), because they retain forward and rotational velocity longer than lighter bullets.
Load some of the bullets you have now to 920 or above fps and see how they do at 50 yards. With a higher velocity, the bullets will start out at a higher rpm and stay above the minimum rpm longer. You'll make yourself crazy trying to get 50 yard groups with light loads and factory barrel. All my guns shoot tight groups with several bullets by doing this. They are great with cast and lubed lead, polymer or powder coat, or jacketed. The only ones that don't work for me are the copper plated Berry's and Ranier. Those give a shotgun pattern in my guns. Bottom line - more velocity will give you tighter groups.
My current Bianchi 686 with a 6", 1 in 10 twist .355 Walther barrel shoots 3/8" groups at 25 yd. and a little over 1" at 50 yd. in a Ransom Rest. Sadly, I can't shoot like that holding it by hand. The bullets are .357 Zero 125 gr. JHP going around 1050 fps.
Load some of the bullets you have now to 920 or above fps and see how they do at 50 yards. With a higher velocity, the bullets will start out at a higher rpm and stay above the minimum rpm longer. You'll make yourself crazy trying to get 50 yard groups with light loads and factory barrel. All my guns shoot tight groups with several bullets by doing this. They are great with cast and lubed lead, polymer or powder coat, or jacketed. The only ones that don't work for me are the copper plated Berry's and Ranier. Those give a shotgun pattern in my guns. Bottom line - more velocity will give you tighter groups.
My current Bianchi 686 with a 6", 1 in 10 twist .355 Walther barrel shoots 3/8" groups at 25 yd. and a little over 1" at 50 yd. in a Ransom Rest. Sadly, I can't shoot like that holding it by hand. The bullets are .357 Zero 125 gr. JHP going around 1050 fps.
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I’m sorry. Oregon Trail Laser cast. Just google laser cast bullets.
A little different spin on the 35cal bullets. (no pun intended)
Decades ago (1980's) I cast/shot only 2 bullets for the 38spl/357mags. The lyman 358311 158gr rn and the h&g #50 148gr wc. By the 1990's I got interested in molds and swaging bullets. Did a lot of testing/shooting over the years with different firearms chambered in 38spl and 357mag. Contenders, s&w's, colts, dan wessons, charter arms, rugers. Along with custom 1 in 10 twist and 1 in 11 twist barrels.
Several years ago, I decided to thin the herd and sold off all of my swaging equipment and most of my molds. Before selling everything off I decided to do head-to-head testing with the bullets I cast and swage. I tested the bullets in 38spl cases and 357mag cases. I used firearms with 2", 2 1/2", 4" (2x), 6" (3x), 8" & 10" bbl's. Twist rates were 1 in 10, 1 in 11, 1 in 18 7/8. Only used 6 different powders in the testing, 3 standard powders (bullseye/be-86/unique) and 3 magnum powders (2400/h110/mp-300).
Used these bullets for testing.
Top row left to right:
Home swaged 158gr jacketed hp using a 380acp case for the jacket.
Mihec 640 series 158gr fn hp
Lyman 358439 158gr swc hp
cramer #26 150gr swc hp
lyman 358156 150gr gc swc hp
Bottom row left to right:
Lyman 358477 140gr swc hp
cramer 158gr rn hp "hunter" bullet
h& g #51 swc hp
I also tested these hb bullets, left to right
lyman 358431 155gr hb swc
raphine 150gr fn hb
Mihec 148gr hbwc
The back of the bus:
Bullets with a bigger/thicker bullet base (bottom drive band) tended to not only have higher velocities for the same load. They tended to be more accurate. Of the 4 different " Keith style swc molds I had, the cramer #26 performed the best velocity and accuracy wise. Sold the rest, still have the #26. As you can see in has the largest bullet base.
The lyman 358311 has a large bullet base also.
The front of the bus:
Where the front drive band or bullet's shoulder end up in the leade of the cylinders plays a huge roll in accuracy. The bottom bullet is seated out further into the leade improving accuracy.
Bullets like the lyman 358156 and the Mihec 640 series bullets have a high & low crimp groove/2 crimp grooves. This allows the reloader to set the bullet out further (longer oal) into the leade of the chambers.
Left, that mihec 640 bullet (sized to .358") crimped in the bottom crimp groove loaded in 38spl cases.
Right: The h&g #50 (sized to .357") loaded long/crimped in the middle crimp groove loaded in 38spl cases.
Both reloads have a heavy, consistent crimp. Crimping is subjective & I've always used a heavy crimp on everything I reload. I also use a expander designed for cast bullets, no wasp waist in the reloads/can't see the bullet in the case.
Try to stay away from too hard of an alloy if you use cast bullets. I use 8/9bhn alloy to cast 99%+ of my revolver/pistol needs. On extremely rare occasions I use a 12/13bhn alloy to stop the cast bullets from "skidding" with hot magnum loads.
I don't do much @ 50yds anymore but I do have plinking/blammo ammo loads for the 357mag and the 44mag.
A mihec 640 series 250gr fn hp in a beater s&w 629/blammo ammo load for 50 & 100 yards. 6-shot group @ 50yds.
More blammo ammo 357mag loads shot with a s&w 686 and garbage mixed brass. Doesn't matter if I use the Mihec 640 158gr fn hp or the cramer 158gr rn hp. Or 5.5gr of bullseye or 6.0gr of bullseye. They shoot +/- 2" 6-shot groups @ 50yds.
All measurements are outside to outside.
Anyway, I'd be looking for bullets:
with large bases
soft alloys
multiple crimp grooves or the ability to crimp them out in the leades of your cylinders
bullets that don't have sharp shoulders or if they do have sharp shoulders they have a large/long front drive band like these swc's. They also have a generous crimp groove.
Decades ago (1980's) I cast/shot only 2 bullets for the 38spl/357mags. The lyman 358311 158gr rn and the h&g #50 148gr wc. By the 1990's I got interested in molds and swaging bullets. Did a lot of testing/shooting over the years with different firearms chambered in 38spl and 357mag. Contenders, s&w's, colts, dan wessons, charter arms, rugers. Along with custom 1 in 10 twist and 1 in 11 twist barrels.
Several years ago, I decided to thin the herd and sold off all of my swaging equipment and most of my molds. Before selling everything off I decided to do head-to-head testing with the bullets I cast and swage. I tested the bullets in 38spl cases and 357mag cases. I used firearms with 2", 2 1/2", 4" (2x), 6" (3x), 8" & 10" bbl's. Twist rates were 1 in 10, 1 in 11, 1 in 18 7/8. Only used 6 different powders in the testing, 3 standard powders (bullseye/be-86/unique) and 3 magnum powders (2400/h110/mp-300).
Used these bullets for testing.
Top row left to right:
Home swaged 158gr jacketed hp using a 380acp case for the jacket.
Mihec 640 series 158gr fn hp
Lyman 358439 158gr swc hp
cramer #26 150gr swc hp
lyman 358156 150gr gc swc hp
Bottom row left to right:
Lyman 358477 140gr swc hp
cramer 158gr rn hp "hunter" bullet
h& g #51 swc hp
I also tested these hb bullets, left to right
lyman 358431 155gr hb swc
raphine 150gr fn hb
Mihec 148gr hbwc
The back of the bus:
Bullets with a bigger/thicker bullet base (bottom drive band) tended to not only have higher velocities for the same load. They tended to be more accurate. Of the 4 different " Keith style swc molds I had, the cramer #26 performed the best velocity and accuracy wise. Sold the rest, still have the #26. As you can see in has the largest bullet base.
The lyman 358311 has a large bullet base also.
The front of the bus:
Where the front drive band or bullet's shoulder end up in the leade of the cylinders plays a huge roll in accuracy. The bottom bullet is seated out further into the leade improving accuracy.
Bullets like the lyman 358156 and the Mihec 640 series bullets have a high & low crimp groove/2 crimp grooves. This allows the reloader to set the bullet out further (longer oal) into the leade of the chambers.
Left, that mihec 640 bullet (sized to .358") crimped in the bottom crimp groove loaded in 38spl cases.
Right: The h&g #50 (sized to .357") loaded long/crimped in the middle crimp groove loaded in 38spl cases.
Both reloads have a heavy, consistent crimp. Crimping is subjective & I've always used a heavy crimp on everything I reload. I also use a expander designed for cast bullets, no wasp waist in the reloads/can't see the bullet in the case.
Try to stay away from too hard of an alloy if you use cast bullets. I use 8/9bhn alloy to cast 99%+ of my revolver/pistol needs. On extremely rare occasions I use a 12/13bhn alloy to stop the cast bullets from "skidding" with hot magnum loads.
I don't do much @ 50yds anymore but I do have plinking/blammo ammo loads for the 357mag and the 44mag.
A mihec 640 series 250gr fn hp in a beater s&w 629/blammo ammo load for 50 & 100 yards. 6-shot group @ 50yds.
More blammo ammo 357mag loads shot with a s&w 686 and garbage mixed brass. Doesn't matter if I use the Mihec 640 158gr fn hp or the cramer 158gr rn hp. Or 5.5gr of bullseye or 6.0gr of bullseye. They shoot +/- 2" 6-shot groups @ 50yds.
All measurements are outside to outside.
Anyway, I'd be looking for bullets:
with large bases
soft alloys
multiple crimp grooves or the ability to crimp them out in the leades of your cylinders
bullets that don't have sharp shoulders or if they do have sharp shoulders they have a large/long front drive band like these swc's. They also have a generous crimp groove.
gwpercle
Member
Even today ... Elmer Keith's bullet designs just Keep On Trucking ...
Maybe the old guy did know a thing or two ...
About two years ago I bought a reprint of his 1936 book " Sixgun Cartridges & Loads " except for loads with Hi-Vel #2 powder about 98% of the book is still relevant , casting and bullet alloy's haven't changed a lick . The reprint is still available on Amazon fo $10 to $15 ... and if you reload ... and want to read exactly what loads Elmer Keith used ... snag one ... best $15 reloading book I ever bought !
Note ... This is not his later book "Sixguns" ...
... but "Sixgun Cartridges & Loads" 1936 , this is the $15 Reprint by Silver Rock Publishing ... don't get em confused !
Gary
Maybe the old guy did know a thing or two ...
About two years ago I bought a reprint of his 1936 book " Sixgun Cartridges & Loads " except for loads with Hi-Vel #2 powder about 98% of the book is still relevant , casting and bullet alloy's haven't changed a lick . The reprint is still available on Amazon fo $10 to $15 ... and if you reload ... and want to read exactly what loads Elmer Keith used ... snag one ... best $15 reloading book I ever bought !
Note ... This is not his later book "Sixguns" ...
... but "Sixgun Cartridges & Loads" 1936 , this is the $15 Reprint by Silver Rock Publishing ... don't get em confused !
Gary
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Forest has some great information there. I would add that Lyman cherry makers did not always follow the same pattern. I have a 358477 with a thick base that I sot for years with the 5.4 gr of Unique that came with most Lyman manuals in the 70's to 90's, It is now labeled as way to hot but 5 gr Unique does a nearly equal job.
I recognize that you are buying bullets but consider that you don't build a line of racing cars by buying off the shelf parts. I would find a small one man casting shop, call him and tell him what you want and offer to buy a lot at a slight premium.
I recognize that you are buying bullets but consider that you don't build a line of racing cars by buying off the shelf parts. I would find a small one man casting shop, call him and tell him what you want and offer to buy a lot at a slight premium.
AJ
US Veteran
What is wrong with casting your own? Been casting for my handguns for the better part of 50 years.
There's nothing wrong with a swc, they're my "go-to" style bullet in the 45acp's and for plinking in the 44cal's (the +/- 245gr hp pictured in the above post).
Note the 44cal swc is for plinking.
The difference is all I have to do is marry the oal/throat in the 45acp bbl to the shoulder of the swc bullet and the magic happens. 3 lite bullets for the 45acp. Two of them are swc's, with the 5f cramer being 175gr instead of the standard 200gr because it's has a hollow base.
Same 4.3gr load of clays (excellent load for any +/- 200gr bullet in the 45acp/1911's). 5-shot groups @ 50ft.
With a revolver it's a little different. There's freebore in the cylinders then the leade. After that there's the bbl gap and then the forcing cone. There's a lot of jumping, reshaping, distortion happening.
A swc with a sharp front drive band/shoulder is more susceptible to this type of distortion. If any distortion happens the nose of the swc follows and this upsets the yawl of the bullet.
More chicken scratch targets. Earlier I showed 50 yard targets using a 640 series & a rn bullet. This was the 25yd targets using the same loads (5.5gr and 6.0gr of bullseye). But also in the 25yd targets are a swc, namely the cramer #26.
The #26 bullet was tested @ 50yds with the other 2 bullets. It didn't end up in the picture.
That's because it (the swc bullet) fell out @ 50yds. The other 2 actually did better @ 50yds then @ 25yds. Groups are not linier when target shooting with pistols/revolvers. If I'm getting 1" groups @ 25yds I expect to get 2 1/2" or 3" groups @ 50yds. I chalk it up to old age & a deuterating skillset.
When you pull the trigger the initial pressure/short start pressure pushes on the bullet's base. Anything under pressure goes to the least point of resistance. This is why hb bullets, long bodied bullets (wc's) or bullets with large bottom drive bands/bullet bases tend to do better accuracy wise/stay strait.
That's only 1/2 the accuracy battle. The front of the bullet is bouncing/sliding into the leade of the chamber of the cylinder. And then again into the forcing cone. Any skidding/flattening/canting of the front drive band of a swc causes the nose of the swc to follow. A wc bullet has no nose and will straiten any initial distortion out with it's long body. This is where the faster twist/spin comes into play. A fn bullet is affected more then a wc bullet by this distortion. But it does better then the heavy nosed swc's.
fn style bullets became popular in the silhouette competitions for a reason.
Keith designed an excellent bullet. But he also had a custom revolver made to shoot them in. I have a beater 629 truck gun. It will put 5 shots in a group and have 1 flier consistently.
If I were to recommend a bullet for the 38spl/50yd line I'd go with a type 3 wc like this 160gr version.
160 Grain Wadcutter (.359)-359-160-WC
gwpercle
Member
The most accurate cast bullet from all my 38 specials and 357 magnums is Lyman #358432 the 160 gr, version plain base wadcutter .
I don't know why ... but it just works .
Lyman has dropped this mould ... I found a single cavity Lyman on Ebay and when I discovered how accurate it shot , in all my revolvers ... I discovered NOE makes it in a 4 cavity aluminum mould ... I ordered one so fast it made my head spin ... and now this is just about the only bullet I cast and load !
If you haven't tried it ... you need to !
See post #35 for a link for this bullet at Matt's Bullet's .
Not many reloaders / shooters know about this neat bullet ...
...It's a Sleeper !
Gary
I don't know why ... but it just works .
Lyman has dropped this mould ... I found a single cavity Lyman on Ebay and when I discovered how accurate it shot , in all my revolvers ... I discovered NOE makes it in a 4 cavity aluminum mould ... I ordered one so fast it made my head spin ... and now this is just about the only bullet I cast and load !
If you haven't tried it ... you need to !
See post #35 for a link for this bullet at Matt's Bullet's .
Not many reloaders / shooters know about this neat bullet ...
...It's a Sleeper !
Gary
I used to shoot a ton of NRA Action Pistol in the late-'80s until the early 2000s. My primary bullet for practice and local competitions was the Bull-X 158gr RN and SWC bullets, and I had zero problems with X-ring accuracy out to 50 yards with them. Unfortunately, they went out of business years ago, but I probably have 20,000 of their bullets still laying around. I just coated them with Alox and had no issues with leading.
As for large matches/Bianchi Cup, I moved to Remington 125gr SJHP bullets. Accuracy was a bit better, and surprisingly the point of impact with my 158gr practice ammo was the same.
Is it possible that your barrel just doesn't like 158gr lead? Have you tried those bullets in other .38s just as a test?
As for large matches/Bianchi Cup, I moved to Remington 125gr SJHP bullets. Accuracy was a bit better, and surprisingly the point of impact with my 158gr practice ammo was the same.
Is it possible that your barrel just doesn't like 158gr lead? Have you tried those bullets in other .38s just as a test?
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That load won't give the OP acceptable recoil for the sustained part of the match.
SGT ROCK 11B
Member
Speer 158 LSWC over 3.5 grains of Bullseye will do it at 50 yards.
