FWIW, I prefer quality standard pressure ammunition in my Hi-Powers. I find it much easier to control the weapon in rapid fire and I'm pretty sure the terminal performance, i.e., penetration and expansion, if ever applied in self-defense will do as well as any handgun round can be expected to do.
9 mm single action pistols okay with +P+?
- Thread starter Naphtali
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2006
- Messages
- 7,781
- Reaction score
- 7,196
OK, while the .38 & 9 x 19mm seem about the same, the 9 does have an advantage. That advantage is that the 9 has a rather narrow velocity range and it's easier to design bullets that perform well in that range.
OTOH, .357 diameter bullets can be loaded anywhere between ~700 f/s and 1500 f/s depending upon bullet weight and if it's a .38 or .357 Magnum load. While bullet design has improved a great deal over the last 30 odd years, you still have the fact that a bullet that works well at one end of the velocity envelope isn't likely to perform as well at the other end. Only where the manufacturer designs a bullet specifically for lower velocities (Short barrel loads for example, or where there are actually different bullets for the different cartridges. I had a box of Speer 125 gr .357 bullets with a dish shaped indent in the nose instead of a hollow point. Outstanding in .357 loads, didn't do squat in .38 +P.) is the .38 going to perform as well as a comparable 9 mm bullet.
There's a distinguished member here who's mantra is: "Shot placement is King, (adequate to reach vital areas) penetration is Queen and all else is angels dancing on the head of a pin." He's right.
FWIW, there's two 124 gr +P loads with proven track records: the Federal HST and the Speer Gold Dot. The Hornady Critical Duty +P load at the same weight is supposed to be good, but I'm unaware of a track record.
Last edited:
LVSteve
Member
I'd be more concerned about a 1911 in 9mm feeding properly. One thing the modern polymer pistols have to their advantage is that they have been designed to feed hollow point 9mm from the gitgo.
As for robustness and longevity, I consider any tilting barrel gun to have a definite life in that area due to wear and tear. It will vary depending how much lock-up dwell is built into the firing cycle and the size and material of the vital locking surfaces. Some guns will wear out the rifling before the geometry goes out (shoots loose) and others vice versa.
The Grand Power company in Slovakia does a 20,000 round test with its rotating barrel designs. Thus far, they have shown no change in geometry and display the same accuracy at the end of the test that they had at the start. Being in Europe, you can bet they are using proper 9mm ammo, not the 115 gr, 1100 fps plinking fodder some think is the standard in the US.
I am a little surprised that the OP was unaware of how a DA/SA semi-auto operates.
Last edited:
Bill Lear
Member
As the farmer said while trying to cut up the old crow he'd just blasted, "that's a tough one!"
The basic rule is the +P is 2,000 psi higher than standard. Thus, +p+ would be double that, or 4,000 psi.
As to expected velocities that depends heavily on the powder being used. Big brand manufacturers often use bulk powders they test in-house for burn rate and character, which may not conform in any way to how cannister grade, or the powders hand loaders generally use.
When it comes to 9mm there are many, many different standards both in the U.S. and Europe. Original loadings were quite "hot" firing a 124 grain bullet at 1,300 fps from a P08 Luger, but the toggle link action demanded full charges for reliable function. When 9mm handguns were brought to the U.S. after both wars, domestic ammo makers deliberately downloaded the ammo because they had no idea the condition of the guns the ammo was being fired in, and sadly, they've never readjusted their scales so to speak, save for specialty loaders.
At the same time, the 9mm is being morphed into ever smaller, lighter guns, and I don't care what kind of steel or unobtanium is used in construction, they aren't really up to the pressure being produced by +P+ loads which are on par with what used to be called "submachinegun" loads on the European side of the pond.
Today, +P+ 9mm ammo is approaching 40K psi - not officially, but certainly unofficially, and truth be told, of all the handgun calibers, the 9mm, with it's super-thick case web, can easily handle as much pressure as any "magnum", but the weak link is the GUN it's being fired in! AmmoGuide is now... "Interactive"! currently lists it at 35K psi which is magnum territory, albeit with lighter bullets.
Back when I was young, dumb, and foc, I loaded 9mm so aggressively I'd end up with a case filled to the rim with Unique, onto which I'd cram the bullet and squeeze that sucker home! I have no idea what the pressure was, but the cases came out looking "mavelous" and the S&W M39 didn't blow up. Neither did my Steyr GB, nor FM High Power, nor various Glocks...you get the picture. The 9mm CASE is about as "bulletproof" as it gets!
Sometime back I tested Underwood's 115 grain +P+ from my incredibly valuable Sig P228 built in Germany and though the gun was no worse for wear, I knew I had touched off some M0F0 level rounds! Over 500 fpe if I remember correctly. So that equates to 1,400 fps! YOWZA! That's right in there with the vaunted 357 Sig! As they say, if you can't "get her done" with 15 of those, you probably can't get her done with six .357 magnum loads either!
I'd say it's safe to run a 1911 full bore with 9mm+P+ because it's big, heavy, all-steel, and dampens the recoil. The 1911 is also capable of shooting .38 Super and my favorite .38 Supercomp and 9x23, both of which can be loaded to reach 600 fpe and the 1911 could care less! Above that I think you should be seriously considering running a barrel-mounted compensator.
The 9mm can't compete with .357 magnum revolver due to the revolver having the capability of shooting much heavier slugs at high speed, but then it doesn't need too. The ideal "defense" slug is the Lehigh defender which in 9mm weighs like 90 grains and will traverse clean through a human torso, and the faster you push it, the more violent the wound channel.
scooter123
Member
I just don't "get" the point of overpressure 9mm. The only thing you are doing is increasing the impact produced between the slide and frame. Note, those choosing to shoot these super hot loads should really be changing the recoil spring in their pistols to one for a 45 ACP. Doing this can make the difference between a cracked frame and a frame that is fully functional.
As for the More Power crowd, if you want more power then do it with a 40 S&W or 45 ACP. Yeah, the 40 Short & Weak. Step in front of a 40 S&W loaded to 1165 fps with a 165 grain bullet and you will conclude that this is not a "weak" caliber.
As for the More Power crowd, if you want more power then do it with a 40 S&W or 45 ACP. Yeah, the 40 Short & Weak. Step in front of a 40 S&W loaded to 1165 fps with a 165 grain bullet and you will conclude that this is not a "weak" caliber.
I would be a bit more concerned about the barrel in the handgun you choice to carry the +P+ ammo in . Just be very sure you have tight chambers and very good support or you could see and feel some problems do some of the sloppy not so well supported chamber.
The winchester 127gr ranger +P+ load can average 1250fps for 441ft lbs .
Might be time for you to move to a 40sw where even a mild 155gr factory load can average 1160 to 1200fps and 463 to 500 ft lbs energy .
I have read that +P+ runs at a PSI of 40,000 also.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#40SW
The winchester 127gr ranger +P+ load can average 1250fps for 441ft lbs .
Might be time for you to move to a 40sw where even a mild 155gr factory load can average 1160 to 1200fps and 463 to 500 ft lbs energy .
I have read that +P+ runs at a PSI of 40,000 also.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#40SW
Echo40
Member
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2017
- Messages
- 4,064
- Reaction score
- 7,904
I myself actually chose .40 S&W over 9mm +P+ in the past for that very reason, and seeing as .40cal pistols tend to be readily available at low prices to this vary day as Police Trade-ins, there's really no valid reason to take the risk of shooting expensive yet potentially dangerous 9mm +P+ when you can buy a used police .40cal pistol for under $400, spend less on ammunition, and end up with a cartridge that's even more powerful than 9mm +P+.
Also, it's important to note that many .40cal pistols can be converted to .357 SIG with just a drop in barrel and a heavier recoil spring, thus leaving the user with a cartridge with a similar bullet diameter, sectional density, and ballistics coefficient as 9mm +P+, but with substantially higher energy.
Once again, I feel it's important to mention that increased peak operating pressures do not translate to an equivalent increase in overall effectiveness. Both .40 S&W and .357 SIG operate at lower peak operating pressure than 9mm +P+, yet produce greater muzzle energy.
Also, it's important to note that many .40cal pistols can be converted to .357 SIG with just a drop in barrel and a heavier recoil spring, thus leaving the user with a cartridge with a similar bullet diameter, sectional density, and ballistics coefficient as 9mm +P+, but with substantially higher energy.
Once again, I feel it's important to mention that increased peak operating pressures do not translate to an equivalent increase in overall effectiveness. Both .40 S&W and .357 SIG operate at lower peak operating pressure than 9mm +P+, yet produce greater muzzle energy.
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2006
- Messages
- 7,781
- Reaction score
- 7,196
Actually, the difference in the +P rating depends upon what measuring system you're talking about: CUP (copper crusher) or PSI (piezo-electric).
CUP: .38 is 17,000, +P is 20,000 Going piezo: .38 is 17,000, +P is 18,500
CUP: 9 mm is 33,000, +P not given Going piezo: 9 is 35,000, +P is 38,500
Generally figure about 10% but will vary. BTW, the pressures quoted are what SAAMI expects ammunition to be loaded to, but there are a couple of higher pressure limits if one chooses to do very, very careful small batch loading & testing.
There is no standard for +P+. The factories added powder until they got the performance demanded by those who signed the hold harmless agreements. Given the development of new powders getting that performance might well be possible at lower pressures.
CIP standards measure pressure differently than SAAMI does and their standards are different. 9 x 19 mm was developed over there and the standards there are the standards there.
All my life I heard about "hot" European subgun ammo. Actually, what the vast majority were/are (outside a very few special loadings under contracts similar to those for +P+ ammo in the US) was ammunition simply loaded to the original factory specifications established outside the US.
There is justification for the comment about how US ammo companies downloaded many cartridges of foreign origin. I'm not real sure how much was actual concern for safety and how much was making sure that buying and using cheap foreign surplus firearms was less attractive to potential buyers. Why spend 2-3 times as much for a new US product when the same performance could be had for much less from a surplus product.
While US bulk/blasting ammo in any caliber is generally loaded to minimize cost rather than enhance performance, those lines are generally loaded toward the lower end of the performance envelope. OTOH, defensive/duty ammo isn't any longer. That pretty much ended 40 odd years ago. What we have now in the +P is pretty much on par with that produced overseas.
Last edited:
LVSteve
Member
From your original post:
This seems to have been interpreted as you thinking polymer guns are tougher than steel guns.
From W-W. On the box.
Attachments
Fishinfool
Member
R/E your gun question - Maybe take a look at the CZ 75. I do believe they make a SA only version, and it is a strong and proven firearm.
Larry
Larry
LVSteve
Member
The picture of the Winchester box show 40K CUP. That is a bunch higher than 40K PSI measured with a modern piezo transducer. I wonder if they have their units hosed up.
I'd be very much surprised if Olin has anything like that hosed up. If anything is hosed up it's more likely people who get their knowledge from grocery store gun rags talking about a topic who don't have a clue about any of it.
I always found it funny people will say they'd never shoot +P+ in their guns. Then I'll mention I have 3-4 cases of it and suddenly they're asking me if they can have a few boxes.
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2005
- Messages
- 9,253
- Reaction score
- 11,474
What's "hosed up" mean?
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2006
- Messages
- 7,781
- Reaction score
- 7,196
STANAG 4090 (NATO standard) gives a absolute pressure limit of 42,700 psi, which shall not be exceeded as measured by radial copper crusher using whatever method they use. No idea how that might compare to any method used in the US. Where the piezo-electric pressure measurement is used, the corrected mean chamber pressure shall not exceed 235 MPa and no individual pressure shall exceed 265 MPa. Whatever that means.
Having said that: the really important part of that Winchester box label is that the ammo is "loaded to Illinois State Police Specifications". ISP will certainly have signed a hold harmless agreement to get that ammo. However, that pressure isn't intended as an established limit, just a notification of what pressures they had to run given the bullet, powder & primers available to meet the contract requirements.
Having said that: the really important part of that Winchester box label is that the ammo is "loaded to Illinois State Police Specifications". ISP will certainly have signed a hold harmless agreement to get that ammo. However, that pressure isn't intended as an established limit, just a notification of what pressures they had to run given the bullet, powder & primers available to meet the contract requirements.
Last edited:
Google is your friend.
From Urban dictionary -
To be completely messed up or ruined; *****-ed
He really hosed up that project.
The PASCAL (Pa) is the international standard (SI) unit for pressure.
MPa is a MEGAPASCAL, or one million Pascal, and is the international standard for measuring the peak pressure in a firearm. Thus 265MPa is 265 megapascal. The SI international units are used for the whole world except for the United States public and a few former British colonies.
Even the US weather service uses the SI units, but converts KPa to millibars to tell surface air pressure to the public.
Last edited:
petepeterson: I tend to believe steel frames outlast plastic. I have no idea whether belief is fact. I used my verbiage in OP because many of the "Wonder nines" nowadays are striker fired while more conservative/traditional nines may have external hammers.
Scooter and Forte Smitten Wesson: When we delve too heavily into ballistics — mea culpa for requesting information in my OP — I begin to understand your logic. And I should. When woods walking or hunting in Lolo National Forest or adjacent state forest, I wear a smaller framed 45 Colt revolver. Before I got tired of carrying a 3-pound revolver with holster, belt, and one reload, that woods walking gun was a 475 Linebaugh.*
A follow-up question: Since apparently nines and 40 S&W use same basis frame size, adjusted for increased recoil??, what sort of price comparison for better quality self-defense ammunition for each caliber? I have no centerfire semiautomatic pistol or other purpose-built self-defense handgun (a single action 45 doesn't count). I'm not sure "better quality" is clear. I hope you understand what I ask. I anticipate 9 mm factory practice ammunition has a huge price advantage. Is factory "practice" ammunition for 9 mm and 40 S&W reasonably or sufficiently close to point of impact of factory self-defense ammunition of choice? Here I'm out of my depth. At table top range, everything is okay. But what is a reasonable distance? Am I asking a reasonable question?
* For those considering acquiring one of these, I could tolerate my 400-grain loads for three shots. And despite wear a shooting glove, this load scraped my hand bloody much like sliding down a rope without gloves would do so.
Scooter and Forte Smitten Wesson: When we delve too heavily into ballistics — mea culpa for requesting information in my OP — I begin to understand your logic. And I should. When woods walking or hunting in Lolo National Forest or adjacent state forest, I wear a smaller framed 45 Colt revolver. Before I got tired of carrying a 3-pound revolver with holster, belt, and one reload, that woods walking gun was a 475 Linebaugh.*
A follow-up question: Since apparently nines and 40 S&W use same basis frame size, adjusted for increased recoil??, what sort of price comparison for better quality self-defense ammunition for each caliber? I have no centerfire semiautomatic pistol or other purpose-built self-defense handgun (a single action 45 doesn't count). I'm not sure "better quality" is clear. I hope you understand what I ask. I anticipate 9 mm factory practice ammunition has a huge price advantage. Is factory "practice" ammunition for 9 mm and 40 S&W reasonably or sufficiently close to point of impact of factory self-defense ammunition of choice? Here I'm out of my depth. At table top range, everything is okay. But what is a reasonable distance? Am I asking a reasonable question?
* For those considering acquiring one of these, I could tolerate my 400-grain loads for three shots. And despite wear a shooting glove, this load scraped my hand bloody much like sliding down a rope without gloves would do so.
Slight turn but mentioned in post earli. Plastic guns not as strong or lasting think was the gist. Me believes many of the 'plastic' semis can and will run on and on with minimal attention. Glock torture test show them tossed in mud, sand and run over by vehicles and so on. Digest most anything you feed'em with no tweaking. Left nasty they keep running and externally no rust. Rathers for me are steel but face it, plastics here to stay. Gaston Glock in '80's started a revolution that continues much like JM Browning...
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Similar threads
