929 going back. Horrible accuracy

[qballwill]

A couple of weeks ago I picked up my new 929 that I won on Gunbroker. I shot it the next day and wasnt impressed with accuracy at 25 yards. I was using a red dot from a rest on sand bags. The red dot is proven because I took it off of my 686 competitor and its a tack driver. I figured I would give it another try before i decided to send it back and load some of my own to try to find a good recipe. I tried some more factory loads and then loaded some 115 plated and some 147 plated with a combination of powder charges.

From 15 yards the best group I got was a rough 2". Everything else was closer to 3"

So I have tried Winchester, CCI Lawman, a smaller local company that loads and then a variety of my own.

Nothing would hold a group. I tried with iron sights with the same results. I will be calling Smith on Monday. I usually have good luck with my S&W purchases, but this one is just unacceptable. 15 yards should make one ragged hole. Any other 929 owners with the same experience?

 

[qballwill]

What would anyone consider acceptable accuracy at 15 yards from a performance center gun made for competition?

 

[ken158]

I would expect one hole group @15 yds - how does the crown look?

 

[Protocall_Design]

I have never been able to get a group out of plated bullets such as Ranier or Berry's. I can easily get good to tight groups with jacketed, cast with soft lube, or polymer coated. This is all in S&W revolvers. My custom barreled 686 is shooting 3/8" groups out of a Ransom rest with 125 gr. JHP at 25 yards. Even that one won't shoot a group with copper plated.

 

[qballwill]

I have never been able to get a group out of plated bullets such as Ranier or Berry's. I can easily get good to tight groups with jacketed, cast with soft lube, or polymer coated. This is all in S&W revolvers. My custom barreled 686 is shooting 3/8" groups out of a Ransom rest with 125 gr. JHP at 25 yards. Even that one won't shoot a group with copper plated.

Along with my plated bullets that I loaded, I have tried Winchester, S&B, Federal, CCI and a local small production company. I just went back out and tried again with iron sights, but the results were the same.

The crown looks good except it looks like there MIGHT be excess metal extending from the grooves, but its really hard to tell. I hate to send it back, but I am just not happy!

 

[H30]

I would expect one hole group @15 yds - how does the crown look?

Your such a kidder.

 

[qballwill]

Your such a kidder.

from a rest with a red dot, one hole wouldnt be unreasonable.
I can nearly do it with my 686 competitor at 25 yards. (from a rest of course)

 

[bluetopper]

I've always got my best groups with jacketed or cast lead. And my best groups with cast lead had no bevel base but had a sharp square base.
From my experience, plated and coated bullet groupings open up noticeably at 25yds vs jacketed or cast.

9mm is very finicky anyway in the accuracy department, I'm telling you. I have years of experience messing with 9mm in two very nice 1911 target guns. Try your new 929 with good accurate bullets and a proven 9mm powder loaded a bit above a minimum listed load. Don't send it back yet. It's not the gun I'm most certain. Experiment a bit more.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

I don't have a 929 but my recently purchased 625-8 PC didn't group well from the start. Checked the bore dia." with my pin gauge set & found it had a slight barrel constriction at the frame junction. Also wasn't crazy about the crown. Hand lapped the constriction out & re-crowned the barrel with a chamfering tool from Brownell's. My 627PC wasn't much better in either area.

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625-8 PC, barrel crown, before

625-8 PC, barrel crown, after

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627-5 PC, barrel crown, before

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627-5 PC, barrel crown, after

.

 

[qballwill]

I've always got my best groups with jacketed or cast lead. And my best groups with cast lead had no bevel base but had a sharp square base.
From my experience, plated and coated bullet groupings open up noticeably at 25yds vs jacketed or cast.

9mm is very finicky anyway in the accuracy department, I'm telling you. I have years of experience messing with 9mm in two very nice 1911 target guns. Try your new 929 with good accurate bullets and a proven 9mm powder loaded a bit above a minimum listed load. Don't send it back yet. It's not the gun I'm most certain. Experiment a bit more.

so what do you suggest, I've tried 5 different name brand manufactured ammo. All jacketed.
And imagine if I didn't reload. Would I be expected to continue to shoot with poor accuracy with factory ammo?

 

[Ignatz]

When my 929 finally came in, I put a 4X Leopold scope on it and I got around 3.5" to 4" groups at 25 yards. I tried an Ultradot with the same results.
I decided to purchase crown and forcing cone tools from Brownells, and now have groups around 1 3/4" at 25 yards. That's good accuracy for USPSA and my regional ICORE matches. I bought the tools because of the possible wait period at a shop.
The other thing with mine is that the cylinder throats are slightly larger than my 627PC 5" gun. Also the throats in my 627 are beautifully machined.....and the 929 has 5 throats similar and 3 about 1 thousand larger. My 929 before and after the barrel trimming shot 5 shots closer together and 3 close together. But, I can live with under 2"s at 25 yards.
And to note, I'm shooting a .358" "Blue" 147gr. bullets in a Starline Colt Short case. TK moonclips for Starline brass (expensive). After shooting all year at USPSA and steel matches, the barrel has never been cleaned, and I run a dry patch thru each cylinder once after a match for something to do. So far, I never put a wet patch thru my 929, or a bronze brush.

 

[amazingflapjack]

So now the purchaser has to be ready to "finish" the gun they buy?

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Sometimes I prefer to take the horse by the reins...it's often less disappointing especially when the factory doesn't take more pride in what they pass on to the future buyer.

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[CALREB]

Got the same problem with my 986. Shoots like **** no matter what 9mm load you put through it. 105-115-124-147 . All 3" or so at 25 yds. Absolutely the worst shooting S/W revolver I own.
I havent taken the time to go through trying to get it straightened out yet , But I believe the whole problem is these guns are not chambered for 9mm. Take a 9mm round and drop it in the cylinder it disappears, these guns dont headspace on the rim of a normal 9mm, they must be 9X21 or 9X23 or something. Which brings up the point Yes they will shoot 9mm buts thats not what they are actually made for. And in this case it really impacts accuracy. I havent taken time to check on this,but I didnt see any other reasons it would shoot soooo bad.
I just figured I would wait and see if they offered a repair or sell this thing and wait to see if they would actually make one in 9mm.
And yes people have told me I could load longer bullets or different brass etc, but thats not why I bought the gun , I wanted a 9mm revolver. This is the first NEW S/W revolver I have bought in way over 15 years. I usually dont buy anything for the first couple years its out, but I really wanted one of these.Oh well we will see what happens. Got plenty of 38,357 revolvers and 9mm autos to shoot in the mean time. Bob

 

[varmint243]

I would expect a tight clover leaf at 15 yards rested
I also agree that 9mm can be a finicky round
Check the cylinder throat diameter and try a bullet that size
I have a 9mm service grade semi that really likes .357 / .358

 

[Tom S.]

So now the purchaser has to be ready to "finish" the gun they buy?

That used to be the norm with Colt 1911's. Sorry to see S&W going this way.

 

[Qball]

Along with my plated bullets that I loaded, I have tried Winchester, S&B, Federal, CCI and a local small production company. I just went back out and tried again with iron sights, but the results were the same.

The crown looks good except it looks like there MIGHT be excess metal extending from the grooves, but its really hard to tell. I hate to send it back, but I am just not happy!

Have you read this post about the adventures of WhistlerSWE and his 929?

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1980-present/428896-929-not-9x19-but-9x21.html


sorry, you have

 

[billiroquois]

Long time lurker here, first reply. I bought a new 929 back in Feb of this year. Picked it up on a Tuesday, went to the club on Saturday then called S&W and sent it back the following Tuesday. My target looked like a shotgun pattern. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Shooting off hand at 25 yards which is what we do twice a week. I tried factory 115's, two different brands and 115 Berry's (my handloads) nothing seemed to tighten up the groups. Received the 929 back three weeks later with a new barrel installed. Took it back to the club with several different weight loads. The 124HP seemed to work the best but still far from the expected results I was looking for. After a couple of months of testing different loads, powders and weights (115, 124 & 147's) off hand and from a bench rested on sand bags I decided to try casting my own bullets. As most casters can agree on, there is a learning curve to casting. I started out sizing at .356 then went to .357 but the mould I was using was a Lee .356124 so after sizing you could see the bullet was not getting completely sized because it didn't seem to be large enough. After much hesitation I bought an RCBS 38-140 FN Cowboy mould. Started sizing at .357 with very good results but thought the .358 would help out more with cleaning/leading the barrel. Well the .358 sized cast bullets lubed with Alox in a Lyman 4500 lube/sizer has taken care of my 929's accuracy issues.
I still get a tiny bit of leading using wheel weights but a few patches with Kroil and a few stroke with a brass brush makes short work of the clean up.
To give you a bit of background, I've been shooting and reloading for almost 40 years.
I've been waiting to post my results on my 929 until I was sure of the results. I was one click away from trading the gun back and had even warned the dealer. Now after all we've been through it has become one of my favorite S&W's!!!! I own a dozen S&W revolvers and this one was by far the worst accuracy wise and now sits at the top of the list.
I know this is long winded but its been a huge learning curve and I hope this will help someone else out as much as lurking here has helped me. Thanks for a great forum....

 

[H30]

Could you have used a .358 dia. plated bullet of appropriate weight instead? I don't cast.

 

[DVCBILL]

Forget the plated bullets if you want accuracy.

 

[billiroquois]

I really don't know what effect the plating would have, its not as thick as a jacketed bullets but since I haven't tried it I wouldn't recommend it. I believe there are a couple of bullet mfg. companies that sell bullets in .001 increments. If you can I'd try the cast bullets first, go slow and load at the milder end of the scale. I've been using W231 lately with good results. As always reference several reloading manuals and keep in mind that you are playing with larger diameter bullets so variables are different then whats published. I'm sure the best way to do this is to have a gunsmith measure the cylinder and bore to be on the safe side. I felt comfortable moving slowly and knew the risks.
My crude measurements included dropping .356 down the cylinder without any resistance was a clue. I also could drop .357 through with the slightest push from a cleaning rod. In the early stages of figuring this out I dug bullets out of the backstop and compared the rifling marks to others I had fired from a 686 (different bullet profile so I knew the difference), both were plated and the ones from the 929 were hard to see the rifling when comparing. All crude methods but moving slowly and carefully I was able to turn a terrible shooting 929 into one of my favorites and now have another hobby in casting!!!! I hope this helps, I played with this project for months but in the end it was worth it..

 

[jaymoore]

S&W seems to be back to it's old shenanigans of making pistol cartridge throats oversize. Was a long "tradition" with the .45 ACP starting with the US M1917 revolvers. Both my 986 and 929 have throats that run 0.357" and larger. 0.358" cast bullets work best for me but aren't for quick reloads! Generally the rounds will have to be pressed forward a bit.

In my loading records book the reference for these two firearms is listed as "0.358"x19mm". 'Cuz it's not a 9x19mm anymore!

 

[lrrifleman]

@ Bluedot,

Thank you for posting the pictures of your 625 and 627. I will be honest, I haven't held or examined a new S&W revolver in close to 20 years. Are my eyes deceiving me, or is there a liner or insert in the barrels of your 2 N frames? If there are liners in the barrels, when did S&W start doing that?

 

[BLUEDOT37]

No liner/inserts. They are one piece barrels with broached cut rifling. It's just the way they flat cut the crown, & the shading, that probably makes it look that way.

.

 

[Lou_the_welder]

No liner/inserts. They are one piece barrels with broached cut rifling. It's just the way they flat cut the crown, & the shading, that probably makes it look that way.

.

ECR they call it. I've heard them mention it as ECM. Electric chemical rifling or electric chemical machining.

Broached rifling although looks cleaner is cut into the metal. ECR uses electricity and acid to cut into the metal. This process gives the crown a pretty rough look and sometimes the lands are indistinguishable. Smith and wesson recommends using jacketed ammo on these barrels. The hardness of the jacketed ammo actually smoothens it out.

The barrels with the liners are like a 327 that uses a shroud around the barrel. Even the 66-69 models have a 2 piece barrel. These are newer designed. You can see how the barrel is screwed, locked and the shroud is around this one.

This is a model 66 one. Same design of sorts but has a cover in the front to hide the barrel with the crown cover. You can see the shroud around.

This is an example of the ugly. ECR. spoke to smith and wesson customers service this morning. Jacketed bullets are supposed to clean up the crown. Lands brand new were indistinguishable. They seem to be appearing after 2k rounds.

looks rough huh. The ugly is its accurate. Just not broached.

 

[H30]

I really don't know what effect the plating would have, its not as thick as a jacketed bullets but since I haven't tried it I wouldn't recommend it. I believe there are a couple of bullet mfg. companies that sell bullets in .001 increments. If you can I'd try the cast bullets first, go slow and load at the milder end of the scale. I've been using W231 lately with good results. As always reference several reloading manuals and keep in mind that you are playing with larger diameter bullets so variables are different then whats published. I'm sure the best way to do this is to have a gunsmith measure the cylinder and bore to be on the safe side. I felt comfortable moving slowly and knew the risks.
My crude measurements included dropping .356 down the cylinder without any resistance was a clue. I also could drop .357 through with the slightest push from a cleaning rod. In the early stages of figuring this out I dug bullets out of the backstop and compared the rifling marks to others I had fired from a 686 (different bullet profile so I knew the difference), both were plated and the ones from the 929 were hard to see the rifling when comparing. All crude methods but moving slowly and carefully I was able to turn a terrible shooting 929 into one of my favorites and now have another hobby in casting!!!! I hope this helps, I played with this project for months but in the end it was worth it..

I measured my throats with a Starrett telescoping gage and they are inded .358

 

[BLUEDOT37]

ECR they call it. I've heard them mention it as ECM. Electric chemical rifling or electric chemical machining.

Broached rifling although looks cleaner is cut into the metal.

.

Those two (625PC & 627PC) are not ECM/EDM, they are broached. You can see that clearly in the picture of the 627PC after re-crowned; nice square lands/grooves.

S&W even states it in the 625PC literature.

• Deep Cut Broached Rifling
• Chamfered Charge Holes
• PC Custom Tear Drop Hammer
• PC Trigger with Stop
• PC Tuned Action

S&W Model 625 PC specs.

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Compare the 627PC picture to the 686+ (ECM) crown/rifling picture.

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686-8 TALO, barrel crown, before

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686-8 Talo, barrel crown, after

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[Lou_the_welder]

I asked about a 627 performance center and a 929. I was told by smith and wesson customers service this morning it was ECR and to run jacketed.

I actually called because i got home from the range the day before and cleaned yesterday the 929. I found the crown had burrs right at the tip. THEN i was reading this thread,soooo i naturally panicked and called. They asked me first how the accuracy was and my concerns. I told them it shot well to which they said the ECR process is actually alot more accurate than broached rifling even if the crown looks like it has burrs. To run it as is with jacketed rounds and that it evens out after a while.

My 627 has an ugly crown . I wouldn't mind having it look like one of yours. They said just to shoot it like the way it is.

 

[AveragEd]

S&W's Performance Center isn't the only such shop to turn out the occasional dud. Several years ago, I purchased a new Remington Model 700 M-KS, a Mountain Rifle with a matte finish in a gray Kevlar stock produced by Remington's Custom Shop. At the time, those ultralight rifles sold for $2,300. I expected very good accuracy, especially considering it was in .223 REM.

The rifle literally shot around corners. Its groups were 14 inches to the right of the aiming point and that's with a 4.5-14x Leupold VX-3 scope and Leupold's adjustable rear mount fully adjusted to move the POI to the left. I sent it back to the Custom Shop and when I heard from the shop manager, who was in contact with me several times, it was to tell me that the problem was in fact real in spite of them trying another stock and several barrels. In fact, every new barrel for that rifle in that caliber in their inventory had the same defect! Since they try to produce parts in batches, it would take a while for them to make another barrel so they obtained a Shilen barrel for the rifle, finished it to match the receiver and returned the rifle to me.

I never shot it after that repair. Someone else made me the proverbial offer I could not refuse. But you needn't feel alone in your quandary.

Ed

 

[DocB]

Some of these crowns are really depressing. I can't imagine producing something like that. . .wouldn't want my name on it.