9mm 147 gr. ammo. Good or bad?

I've never understood how these things can be considered useless for self-defense:

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While these things are the ultimate death ray:

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Same bullet, same weight, same velocity (about 950 fps).

I like both loads - the 9mm is better than it's reputation, and the .38 is not quite as fearsome as the hype would have you believe.

I know guys that have used the 147 grain 9mm in shootings, and they had no complaints.
 
9mm 147 grains at sub-sonic velocity or .45 230 grains at sub-sonic velocity? Hummm...
 
Winchester Ranger 147 grain 9mm is what I use in my 3913.

Great round. It works and works well too. Accurate out of the 3913 and most other 9mm pistols I own.

I don't think I'll be switching to any other round. Regards 18DAI.
 
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How stupid to say "ask him if he would stand in front of a 147gr, How about standing in front of me and let me throw my 9mm at you. The question is legitimate, 147gr subsonic hollow points DON`T EXPAND. the FBI found that out the hard way,

The current FBI issue 9mm ammo is a 147 grain Gold Dot. Its been used in several shootings, and expansion has not been a problem.

We went to this ammo after the much criticized 115 grain Silvertip launched by Jerry Dove into Michael Platt on 04/11/86 expanded in Platt's upper arm and didn't penetrate far enough into his chest. Hence our obsession with deep penetration.

The 147s penetrate extremely well, and the good ones expand, too.
 
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We went to this ammo after the much criticized 115 grain Silvertip launched by Jerry Dove into Michael Platt on 04/11/86 expanded in Platt's upper arm and didn't penetrate far enough into his chest. Hence our obsession with deep penetration.

The FBI got all weirded out about "penetration" after Miami. Clearly they had tunnel vision for a while. They got their info from military types who had never actually shot anyone with a handgun hollowpoint. Handgun stopping power is multifactorial, and dwelling on any single factor to the exclution of others, is a fools errand!

Plus, for a while there was this obsession with pistol caliber carbines/subguns. Everybody figured they were going to get better velocities from those long barrels, so the heavy and slow issue didn't seem like such a big deal to some folks.

I paid my way through college working for the medical examiner of a large populous county in the southwest. Later, I taught human anatomy and physiology for a few years. Saw a bullet wound or two! There is a lot more to the equation than just penetration. Nobody I saw survived because of lack of adequate penetration!
 
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I don't know of anyone who was properly "Mozambiqued" with any 9mm round that complained about the lack of effectiveness of the round.

This thing is a gunwriter-generated tempest in a teapot. There are three things that count, in order:

  1. Shot placement
  2. Penetration
  3. Bullet expansion
You can't win without the first two, and the third is useful although less necessary.

Buck
 
We went to this ammo after the much criticized 115 grain Silvertip launched by Jerry Dove into Michael Platt on 04/11/86 expanded in Platt's upper arm and didn't penetrate far enough into his chest.

Nothing more sinister there, than poor shot placement!

In reality, the huge tactical blunder in Miami, was that they showed up to an automatic rifle fight with some handguns and a shotgun! Same lesson got repeated yet again in North Hollywood, a few years later. I never see a patrol car these days that doesn't contain a rifle....so lesson well learned.
 
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The FBI got all weirded out about "penetration" after Miami. Clearly they had tunnel vision for a while. They got their info from military types who had never actually shot anyone with a handgun hollowpoint. Handgun stopping power is multifactorial, and dwelling on any single factor to the exclution of others, is a fools errand!

Plus, for a while there was this obsession with pistol caliber carbines/subguns. Everybody figured they were going to get better velocities from those long barrels, so the heavy and slow issue didn't seem like such a big deal to some folks.

I paid my way through college working for the medical examiner of a large populous county in the southwest. After granduation, I taught human anatomy for a few years. Saw a bullet wound or two! There is a lot more to the equation than just penetration. Nobody I saw survived because of lack of adequate penetration!

I would hope working in the medical examiner's office you wouldn't see anyone who survived anything. (I'd put a winky smiley face here if I knew how)

I came into the Bureau five years after the Miami shooting. The lesson was still fresh in everyone's minds. I've met some of the guys who were in the shooting, and John Hall, who headed the unit that instituted the ammunition testing protocols, was my legal instructor at Quantico.

Anyway, the events of that day have been picked at ad nauseum. There are several threads regarding it here. I'll take a swing at two of the most common fallacies, though I'm sure it won't make any difference.

- The Agents brought pistols to a rifle fight.

There was a whole squad of guys working the rolling stakeout that day. Some had M-16s and MP-5s, as well as shotguns. It turned out that those guys weren't in on the takedown, which was decided upon quickly to prevent a shootout in a more populated area. Gordon McNeill, who was the squad supervisor and could have easily been in his office with his feet up (where most Bureau supervisors would be), elected not to use his 870. Instead he shot Matix in the face and took him out of the fight, using his personally-owned, Bureau-approved, Model 19 snub. Ed Mireles famously used his shotgun, but it really didn't have much impact on the outcome of the fight.

I'll grant this - in those days the Bureau was much more pistol-centric. We tended to get things done with our sidearms. I'm still that way, though now most of the younger guys I work with can barely bring themselves to knock on a door without an M4 on a tactical sling.

- The Bureau blamed everything on a single 9mm round.

Again, the internet chatter is untrue. There was massive soul-searching in the Bureau in the wake of 4/11/86. Lots of things changed - tactics, training, policies, and more. The ammunition tests were just one part of it. But we are a closed society, and most of the soul searching was done where we do almost everything - behind closed doors.

Believe me - nobody in the Bureau was "weirded out" over anything. The ammo guys did a methodical examination of every shooting in the Bureau's history and came up with standards for a bullet to meet based on those actual shootings. One thing they found was that we shoot a lot of people in cars. That and other factors led to an emphasis on penetration. I happen to agree with it, which is good since I have to carry what they give me. Since we don't issue ammo to other agencies, I don't see why everyone else got bunched-panties syndrome. Use what you want.

But I will say this - had Jerry Dove put a 147 grain hollowpoint in exactly the same spot as he did that Silvertip when Platt was rolling out of the Monte Carlo, I have no doubt it would have plowed a hole straight through his black heart. His blood pressure would have dropped to zero, his Mini-14 would have clattered to the ground, and his face would have bounced off the pavement. The boys would have killed or hooked up Matix, it would have been a one-day story in the paper, and nobody here would have any reason to debate it.
 
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How stupid to say "ask him if he would stand in front of a 147gr, How about standing in front of me and let me throw my 9mm at you. The question is legitimate, 147gr subsonic hollow points DON`T EXPAND. the FBI found that out the hard way,

No stupider than saying 147gr 9mm ammo is worthless...
 
The ammo guys did a methodical examination of every shooting in the Bureau's history and came up with standards for a bullet to meet based on those actual shootings. One thing they found was that we shoot a lot of people in cars. That and other factors led to an emphasis on penetration.

What is unfortunate, is that civilians followed your agencies lead. Just like everybody went out and bought a "Dirty Harry" gun just because of a movie, everybody jumped on the 147 gr bandwagon just because it was the "FBI load" (I did so myself...for a couple days). What may be appropriate for YOUR agency, is NOT necessarily what is appropriate for the civilian carrying on the street or defending their home (the majority of the folks here in this forum I presume), but many an average Joe may never have considered that fact.

A civilian with even minimal common sense, isn't going to engage in a protracted running gunbattle on the street. If he does, there will no doubt be some unpleasent legal consequences! What a civilian needs is to fire a round or two to save his life, then break off the confrontation, find cover, and give law enforcement enough time to show up and take over. The civilian's most likely target will be an unobstructed chest shot....NOT shooting up cars. Lungs in particular are not very dense, so you need a bullet that will penetrate through a rib/sternum, while expanding violently. Otherwise, you just end up with a tiny little 9mm wide hole.
 
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I'm glad you've found something that works for you.

Personally, I think ammunition is about the least important factor of the myriad of things that make up a self defense shooting, but it sure is fun to talk about.

One day soon I'll retire, but even then I think if I occasionally carry a 9mm I'll still use the 147s. I like a round that will punch through hands and forearms and belt buckles and boom boxes (iPods now, I guess) and leather coats and whatever else might get between me and a bad boy's plumbing. But that's just me, and I certainly see your point.
 
Wow, people sure get excited and feel strongly about a 32gr difference in a bullet.

If someone has more than anecdotal evidence of the current generation of 147gr ammo (HST, RangerT, GoldDot, Golden Saber, etc)

1. failing to expand
or
2. over penetrating

I would be interested in seeing it.
 
From Dave Spaulding (same topic on another forum)

"Just got off the phone with a friend in the South. One of his officers was attacked at close range with a knife during a building search. Suspect came "out of no where" and the officer shot from a close retention position...sounded like the classic speed rock. Officer fired one round of Federal 147 grain +P HST from G-17. Round entered the high chest under the up raised right arm, traveled across the body and stopped just short of exiting the left side of the chest. Bullet was recovered in a perfect mushroom measuring .65 caliber. Remaining rounds in the gun's magazine were clocked by the Ballistics Unit at the Crime Lab from the officer's gun. Average velocity of 1,089 fps. The current 147 9mm round is NOT the round of yesteryear."
 
When I was still working, I really like the 147grn bullets in my MP5 that was supressed. I don't care for them in my pistols. But to each his own.

Retirement is really, really good.

Rule 303
 
How stupid to say "ask him if he would stand in front of a 147gr, How about standing in front of me and let me throw my 9mm at you. The question is legitimate, 147gr subsonic hollow points DON`T EXPAND. the FBI found that out the hard way,

Welcome to the 90's.
 
The question is legitimate, 147gr subsonic hollow points DON`T EXPAND. the FBI found that out the hard way,

Besides the fact that the FBI didn't, bullets were killing lots of things for about 400 years without the ability to expand. All sorts of dangerous game gets whacked to this day by non-expanding bullets by choice.

There's a sentence in the FBI's report on their ammunition testing that says in effect: You should look at the tests that most closely meet the YOUR requirements and choose the ammunition appropriately.
 
Reading sigp220.45's postings made me realize that I've not shot 147-grainers lately in the PPS that I carry so often, so I ran a number of them through the gun today at the range. It reminded me how accurate and pleasant-shooting these rounds are. Think I'll have to shoot them more often - and I think I may actually carry the little things more. :)
 
never said 147gr 9mm was worthless. just that there better choices. Would you stand in front of someone with a shovel and let him hit you. Does not mean a shovel is the best carry weapon.

Why don't you take a look at the OP's first post. Maybe useless and worthless don't mean the exact same thing, but they are pretty darn close.
 
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