9mm Defense Round

The primary determinant of stopping power is BULLET PLACEMENT. A cool, deliberate marksman with a little .32 Walther PPK will beat a panicky, inaccurate man with a .357 Magnum or $1200 customized .45 auto every time

American ammunition is the best in the world. Stick to Federal, Cor-Bon, Hornady, Remington, Winchester or CCI ammunition. Some foreign stuff is pretty good (PMC, IMI-Samson, Fiocci), some foreign stuff is great (Dynamit-Nobel, Norma, GECO), some foreign stuff is practice-only junk (e.g. Wolf, CDM - Mexico, military surplus), but no foreign stuff is anywhere near as good as domestic ammunition when it comes to vanquishing hostile attackers. Buy American
 
Ghostofwar said:
Why in the world would you prefer a FMJ? Unless you are in the military, there is no good reason to use the 124gr NATO round for self defense. Sure it will put people down for a dirt nap, but many times it will produce a through and through wound that does little damage to the internal organs. It punches a nice little hole straight through. Even when the bullet tumbles inside of tissue, it does not create nearly as much damage as a longer round (like the 7.62 or 5.56). Wounds like this will allow a person to continue fighting for a period of time even if the wound is a fatal one. The 1986 Miami shootout is a great example of bullets failing to stop a person.

Modern hollow point bullets are designed to produce the largest wound cavity possible. They are designed to dump massive amounts of energy into the body. They are designed to stop a person quickly and effectively.

You could make the argument that shot placement is everything, but with a FMJ round, you would have to hit the brain, spinal cord, or heart to stop the fight quickly. Thats a pretty tough shot to make is a stressful situation.

I don't know if you are a hunter or not, but I'll ask anyway...
Would you hunt deer with a FMJ round? I can't think of anyone that does. People want to drop a deer in their tracks, and that is often achieved with hollow points, ballistic tips, and soft points that are designed to expand on impact.

Just because it can be done, doesn't mean its always a good idea.
Click to expand...

That's like you're opinion man. I prefer it (NATO 124 grain FMJ)because I've seen more people killed with FMJ than hollowpoints. I practice the two-shot hammer and I shoot center mass.

However, that is just my opinion about the 9mm. My actual (meaning what I plan to use/practice with most) preference is using a .45 ACP revolver loaded with 225 grain wadcutters. That's right, wadcutters.
 
Pigirondan said:
That's like you're opinion man. I prefer it (NATO 124 grain FMJ)because I've seen more people killed with FMJ than hollowpoints. I practice the two-shot hammer and I shoot center mass.

However, that is just my opinion about the 9mm. My actual (meaning what I plan to use/practice with most) preference is using a .45 ACP revolver loaded with 225 grain wadcutters. That's right, wadcutters.
Click to expand...

Ok. Go for it.
 
I use any quality 115gr. or 124gr. JHP that functions and groups adequately in the particular pistol. My current HD pistol is loaded with the discontinued Remington 124gr. JHP. When this ammo is expended I will probably buy a bunch of federal 115gr. JHP (9BP), Winchester 115gr. JHP (White Box, SXZ or Silvertip) or Federal 124 gr. HST if I can find a good deal on it.

If I was LE then, I might want to consider choosing ammo that has had some kind of jacket-core bonding since the possibility of needing to shoot though auto glass or car doors. However since I am not, then all I really car about is reasonably reliable expansion with decent velocity.
 
Speer 124 Grn JHP +P

Ammoman has it for $27.50 a box, delivered in case quantity.

This ammo's performance is nothing short of spectacular. I know .40 carriers that are going back to 9's simply because of this load.

I don't trust the 147 grn 9P loads. Recently a largish feral cur was shot while in the act of destroying live stock. The officer is a member here, a fantastic shot and like a son to me. He used a WW 147 and hit the pooch right in the breadbasket. It ran off and howled miserably until being chased down, found and finally got two in the hat.
 
147gr Federal HST std. pressure for me. 12 to 14 inches penetration, reliable expansion to @ .65 caliber, sharp and nasty expanded bullet. Shoots soft, accurate and cycles perfectly in the Walther PPQ.

I would feel good with the 124gr HST as well but prefer the 147.
 
Ranger SXT

For HD I use the Win Ranger SXT. In the distance it is used it is very accurate. And the 147 gr. Will do its job if you do your Job. Shot Placement is what counts.

Safe Shooting Always
 
jimmyj said:
Purchase a 50 round box of Winchester 147gr JHP "Personal Defense" ammo at the ammo counter. This is the only defense round available.
Anyone use this ammo? Opinions?
Thanks,
Jimmy
Click to expand...

The Winchester USA economy brand 147JHP is one of the worst U.S. manufactured rounds available for SD use. The bullet/load (originally designated as the Type-L Olin Super Match) was designed/developed in the early-mid 80s for use in suppressed subguns for the SEALs. it was never designed for use in pistols for LE use let alone for civilian SD purposes. The Win 147JHP bullet construction hasn't changed since it was first developed. Any of the more modern designed 147JHPs would be a better choice (Golden Saber, Hydra-Shok, Gold Dot, HST etc.).
 
When I carry one of my several 9mm autos it is loaded with 124 gr fmj
ammo that I have chronographed and know is warm and consistant.
What's the difference between a HP bullet that fails to expand beyond
bullet diameter for whatever reason and a 124 gr fmj bullet? Bullet
placement and penetration are what counts. No high tech super bullet
is going to compensate for poor shot placement. I suspect that many
people who choose expensive HP ammo for carry will not want to
spend the money required to run a few hundred rounds through their
guns to test reliability.
 
i have the 147 in my x-d 9 sub compact. works great for me. cycles good and has decent accuracy for a factory load. i prefer to have golden saber in 125gr bonded for carry, but the 147 is good too.
 
alwslate said:
When I carry one of my several 9mm autos it is loaded with 124 gr fmj
ammo that I have chronographed and know is warm and consistant.
What's the difference between a HP bullet that fails to expand beyond
bullet diameter for whatever reason and a 124 gr fmj bullet? Bullet
placement and penetration are what counts. No high tech super bullet
is going to compensate for poor shot placement. I suspect that many
people who choose expensive HP ammo for carry will not want to
spend the money required to run a few hundred rounds through their
guns to test reliability.
Click to expand...
"Since there's a chance a bullet will fail to excel, and end up performing like the inferior design, I'm just picking the inferior design to ensure it." That's not a very good argument. But I see it all the time.

Of course high tech bullets don't compensate for poor shot placement, they try to compensate for bullets that fail even with good shot placement.
 
I use Double Tap 115 grain JHP for self defense if I carry a 9mm, but that's not often. I usually carry a 10mm.
 
alwslate said:
When I carry one of my several 9mm autos it is loaded with 124 gr fmj
ammo that I have chronographed and know is warm and consistant.
What's the difference between a HP bullet that fails to expand beyond bullet diameter for whatever reason and a 124 gr fmj bullet? Bullet placement and penetration are what counts. No high tech super bullet is going to compensate for poor shot placement. I suspect that many people who choose expensive HP ammo for carry will not want to spend the money required to run a few hundred rounds through their guns to test reliability.
Click to expand...

Very simply, a JHP of modern design will always have a mechanical ability to expand past it's original diameter. A FMJ can deform if striking hard bone, but it will NEVER expand. Also, the JHP has a flat meplat at the beginning of the HP cavity. Even if the JHP fails to expand this allows slightly more ability to tear/crush tissue in it's path, as opposed to the round smooth and pointy meplat of the FMJ bullet that just slips through tissue forcing it aside and leaving very little tissue damage. And let's not forget about the FMJ's well known history of dangerous overpenetration which is borne out by viewing ballistic gel tests that show 9MM FMJ bullets penetrating 24+ inches.

With the vast wealth of information that is available to us today regarding the effectiveness of JHPs compared to FMJs, it is irresponsible and negligent to be using FMJ or solid bullets for personal SD in any service calibers.
 
Jimmy, it seems to me that the 147 grn hp wins two ways: 1) the higher SD means that it will likely pentrate better than a lighter bullet, and 2) its a hollow point, so if it does expand you benefit from the greater tissue damage along the path of the bullet.

Seems like the issue most shooters dance around is whether or not the hp bullet will actually expand. Some go light and fast to make expansion happen - with some risk that the lighter bullet may not penetrate sufficiently. Others give up on the expectation of expansion and look for maximum penetration - and go fmj. The 147 grn hp is just another solution to the problem. I use them - Winchester Ranger T-Series and have found them to be accurate and reliable. I can't prove they are better than any other solution advocated here. I believe the San Diego PD is using them and have found them effective in a number of shoots.

Truthfully, I have quite a few Speer 124+P Gold Dots and fmj rounds socked away. I'd feel pretty good about using any one of the three loads.

Out
West
 
With the vast wealth of information that is available to us today regarding the effectiveness of JHPs compared to FMJs, it is irresponsible and negligent to be using FMJ or solid bullets for personal SD in any service calibers.
Hmmm...... I thought it was irresponsible and negligent to perpetrate
criminal acts on law abiding citizens. Oh well. Solid bullets would
include lead RN,WC and SWCs I suppose? FMJ bullets often tumble in
soft tissue and create wounds larger than diameter. CTG COLLECTOR
I would think by now the issue of dangerous overpenetration would
have been laid to rest given the reality that the police miss their perps
with so many of their rounds fired. I think the dangerous deeply
penetrating FMJ 9mm bullet is what I want on my side. But hey, to
each his own. Carry what you have confidence in. Most of us will never
have to live or die testing our ammo choice.
 
If you feel okay with a 38 Special +P 158 grain load at 950 fps you should be just fine with a 9mm 147 grain slug moving at 1000 fps. If anything, the 9mm should have a little edge over the 38.
 
I use 9mm 115 jhp in my carry gun for a couple of reasons. It is cheap, plentiful and shoots well in my small frame auto. I stay away from FMJ because I worry about collateral damage. I don't know what kind of energy is left after a FMJ bullet exits on a through and through wound but I don't want to risk hitting an innnocent down range.

Lets not kid ourselves into thinking, that because we may have real tight groupings at the range, that in a deadly force situation you will have the same results. Accuracy under that kind of situation is the exception not the rule. I feel more comfortable with a bullet that is going to expend most of it's energy on it's first contact, whether that is where I am aiming, a building wall, car, hotdog cart or anything else. If you have to shoot through something to hit your attacker, then you are probably going to have a hard time justifying the use of deadly force anyway.

I think what grain bullet you use in SD is less important than making sure you practice with what you carry and practice, practice, practice. That is what will save you.

Just my two cents for what it's worth
 
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