scattershot
Member
With a 1 1/4" entry wound, what did the bullet encounter first before it entered the victim? Just curious.
9mm high performance ammo
- Thread starter Tyrod
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With a 1 1/4" entry wound, what did the bullet encounter first before it entered the victim? Just curious.
I can't comment any further, other than the bullet was a center shot to the skull.
Hitting the skull (bone) is what started the expansion of the bullet.
You will have to take my word on the wound I saw.
This round has been mentioned in many publications as a top police/defense load. It's lineage is from the old Black Talon.
I have some boxes of the old ISP +p+ load that will kill too, but to see the 127 SXT +p+ damage that I saw, that ISP load (now) will be my second choice.
I have seen that round penetrate Kevlar too (I can't recall what threat level the vest was rated for) but it went right through after being shot out of a Colt 9mm carbine.
TAKJR
Hitting the skull (bone) is what started the expansion of the bullet.
You will have to take my word on the wound I saw.
This round has been mentioned in many publications as a top police/defense load. It's lineage is from the old Black Talon.
I have some boxes of the old ISP +p+ load that will kill too, but to see the 127 SXT +p+ damage that I saw, that ISP load (now) will be my second choice.
I have seen that round penetrate Kevlar too (I can't recall what threat level the vest was rated for) but it went right through after being shot out of a Colt 9mm carbine.
TAKJR
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I've started using the new DRT ammo, that is made for the spec-ops community.(only for serious use, definately not for plinking. $30-$40 for 50 rounds, depending on caliber.) The troops call it "Dead Right There", for the DRT name. Made with a powdered metal filled, thin brass bullet, that releases the fast spinning powder on contact, and puree's the inside organs.
EarlFH
EarlFH
StatesRightist
Member
Do whatever you feel is the right thing, but there are multiple articles available on this ammo showing it fails to perform as advertised, check it out via Google. Here's just one below:
Dynamic Research Technologies (DRT) ammo
Also, someone gave you some bad info, Spec-Ops does not use this ammo. Any ammo like this was outlawed under the Geneva Convention.
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spirit4earth
Member
I've used Gold Dot 124 +p short barrel, but I can get a better price on Gold Dot 124 or 147 in a 50rd/box than short barrel in a 20rd/box. I'd like to get more of a "push" recoil than a "flip", but I don't want much more muzzle flash than the short barrel ammo has. Would the 147 be too much for the 9c to handle, and would the muzzle flash be significantly greater than the 124? I'm focusing on Gold Dot because it's more accurate in my gun than Federal 135 low recoil. I haven't tried Federal HST yet, but I can't afford to try everything, and I know Gold Dot works.
StatesRightist
Member
There are those who love 147gr 9mm ammo and those who do not. The results I've seen on the GD 147gr are excellent and Doc Roberts recommends them. I would be comfortable using 147gr GD's myself. GD SB 124 +P has a muzzle velocity of 364 ft/lbs and the 147 326 ft/lb, so the recoil and flash of the 147 will be slightly less. The GD 124gr standard ammo is not Doc Roberts recommended, the 124 gr +P is though. JMO.
The mildest of the loads and the cheaper would be the 147gr. I would see no problem with the 9c handling it. HST's and Rangers are my favorites, but that's personal choice. The 147gr SGD's are highly recommended and I see no reason why that would not be an excellent choice given the criteria you've given.
Well, I'll take the advise of the troops who ARE using it. They swear by it.
I noticed that they didn't fire it into any living flesh, either. By the way, the U.S. never signed the Geneva Convention. Everyone needs to use what they think is best. Thanks for the info.
EarlFH
StatesRightist
Member
I agree it's up to each of us. You are 100% right!
Hey, do me a favor, send me a link for where US troops are using DRT. I'm always interested in learning, yesterday's info is today's past tense. I know what their advertising insinuates, but have seen zero tangible proof of the US military using any DRT ammo. But things change....Thanks, have a good week.
PS...While we did sign the Geneva Convention with one written reservation, I don't know what I was thinking. I meant the Hague Convention of 1907 which outlawed expanded bullets and bullets such as the DRT. The last thing I am aware of regarding exceptions to it was the JAG rulings under Haywood Parks purvey of 1985 and 1993 which allowed hollow points against terrorist's etc, but not uniformed troops. Any new info since then? Again, I appreciate finding out new stuff! Thanks.
It's been over forty years since I went to RVN, but when I went through MARINE CORPS Bootcamp, they emphasized that we hadn't signed the Geneva Convention. I guess things change.
Since the 'sand people' don't wear uniforms, I guess the JAG ruling allows it.
The only info I have about the spec ops using it, is from the company I bought the ammo through. Supposedly, it was designed for them. Who knows?
Thanks,
Earl.
Stu Honea
Member
SR,I think the good Doc has recently tested and added the 124+P HST to his list as well as the 124+P Golden sabre.
I think it's back on about page 9 or 10 in the terminal ballistics sub forum on M4C.
I am continuing to get great accuracy,and through testing,good bullet performance with the 147gr.HST's and Ranger's in 3 1/2 in. barreled pistols.
I think it's back on about page 9 or 10 in the terminal ballistics sub forum on M4C.
I am continuing to get great accuracy,and through testing,good bullet performance with the 147gr.HST's and Ranger's in 3 1/2 in. barreled pistols.
spirit4earth
Member
Is there a difference between Speer GD LE Duty Ammunition and Speer GD Personal Protection ammo? There is certainly a price difference!
StatesRightist
Member
It's no big deal I agree. What is important is your service to your country. Let me say thank you from the next generation. I appreciate and respect your sacrifice.
StatesRightist
Member
SR,I think the good Doc has recently tested and added the 124+P HST to his list as well as the 124+P Golden sabre.
I think it's back on about page 9 or 10 in the terminal ballistics sub forum on M4C.
I am continuing to get great accuracy,and through testing,good bullet performance with the 147gr.HST's and Ranger's in 3 1/2 in. barreled pistols.
You are right. You're also dead on on using what you know works. Have a good evening Sir!
StatesRightist
Member
The only difference is the LE stuff comes in bigger boxes and is cheaper, typically. Most commercial stuff comes in 20 round boxes and they jack the price up. Just be sure it's not marked not for LE use, use for practice. Those are seconds and typically failed the QC process. Other than that, buy whatever you can get cheaper.
If you want to, PM me, I'll give a couple of places you can get ammo much cheaper than Midway etc if you need the info. Have a good one.
SR,I think the good Doc has recently tested and added the 124+P HST to his list as well as the 124+P Golden sabre.
I think it's back on about page 9 or 10 in the terminal ballistics sub forum on M4C.
I am continuing to get great accuracy,and through testing,good bullet performance with the 147gr.HST's and Ranger's in 3 1/2 in. barreled pistols.
Perhaps you didn't know, but the "good Doc" is a....................DENTIST. He does NOTHING different that you cannot Google for free on ATK's or Winchester's respective websites: shoots gel & sometimes with barriers. He also is a lackey of Dr. Martin "Big Bullet" Fackler who decried the 9mm +p+ as bad, yet he never talked to anyone from the BP or ISP who actually shot people with it & swore by it.
If you want to know how bullets work on people talk to people who have shot people & not gel.
Stu Honea
Member
So I should sit around talking to myself,then? Folks might think I'm crazy!
I don't believe I said anything derisive about a 115gr.+P+.
I think if you have issues with Gary Roberts,you should take it up with him,not me.
In the meantime,lose the attitude.No one is impressed.
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StatesRightist
Member
Brief listing
Dr. Roberts is currently on staff at Stanford University Medical Center; this is a large teaching
hospital and Level I Trauma center were he performs hospital dentistry and surgery. After
completing his residency at Navy Hospital Oakland in 1989 while on active military duty, he studied
at the Army Wound Ballistic Research Laboratory at the Letterman Army Institute of Research and
became one of the first members of the International Wound Ballistic Association. Since then, he
has been tasked with performing military, law enforcement, and privately funded independent
wound ballistic testing and analysis. He remains a Navy Reserve officer and has recently served
on the Joint Service Wound Ballistic IPT, as well as being a consultant to the Joint FBI-USMC
munitions testing program and the TSWG MURG program. He is frequently asked to provide wound
ballistic technical assistance to numerous U.S. and allied SOF units and organizations. In addition,
he is a technical advisor to the Association of Firearms and Toolmark Examiners, as well as to a
variety of Federal, State, and municipal law enforcement agencies. He has been a sworn Reserve
Police Officer in the San Francisco Bay Area, where he now he serves in an LE training role.
I'd say he's qualified to comment on ammo/wounding etc.
...and I agree with Stu...your attitude is pointless....why come at him or me that way?
MichiganScott:
Being in law enforcement, I can't use FMJ and I would advise againt its use for self defense. Past December 21, 2012 when Zombies are everywhere and you have nothing else, different story. The new military round you are talking about is too little, too late in my opinion for them. They should be able to use anything they want (as far as I am concerned). I was a sergeant during the Vietnam era in the US Army so I know just a little.....
I agree "shot placement" is key, but having seen several gunshot wounds up-close in all my years, this one specific case got my attention. Yes, hitting the skull bone will make a hole with 9mm ball, but this hole was "very" different. NO EXIT. Ball would have went through-and-through. I normally use a .45 but when I use a 9mm on occasion, I use this round now specifically. I went to my local LEO shop and purchased a case of 500 for long term use and if I get a chance to get funds for another case, I will. Seeing is believing.
The gun magazine articles of yore used to feed us the 9mm vs. .45 debate almost every few months, but with today's ammunition of whatever JHP design or velocity, we are much better off.
We must not forget the lives lost (FBI'S Miami-Dade shootout) that brought the FBI and the ammunition companies up to speed (no pun intended) to where we are at today. I would have not brought handguns to a rifle fight back then, but that's another forum topic for another time.
TAKJR
Being in law enforcement, I can't use FMJ and I would advise againt its use for self defense. Past December 21, 2012 when Zombies are everywhere and you have nothing else, different story. The new military round you are talking about is too little, too late in my opinion for them. They should be able to use anything they want (as far as I am concerned). I was a sergeant during the Vietnam era in the US Army so I know just a little.....
I agree "shot placement" is key, but having seen several gunshot wounds up-close in all my years, this one specific case got my attention. Yes, hitting the skull bone will make a hole with 9mm ball, but this hole was "very" different. NO EXIT. Ball would have went through-and-through. I normally use a .45 but when I use a 9mm on occasion, I use this round now specifically. I went to my local LEO shop and purchased a case of 500 for long term use and if I get a chance to get funds for another case, I will. Seeing is believing.
The gun magazine articles of yore used to feed us the 9mm vs. .45 debate almost every few months, but with today's ammunition of whatever JHP design or velocity, we are much better off.
We must not forget the lives lost (FBI'S Miami-Dade shootout) that brought the FBI and the ammunition companies up to speed (no pun intended) to where we are at today. I would have not brought handguns to a rifle fight back then, but that's another forum topic for another time.
TAKJR
Stu Honea
Member
TAKJR, I have to agree that the RA9TA is a very,very,effective round as has been proven to me locally by shoots with this round by officers. I used it for a long time,and still keep a supply of it,also.I just don't use it on a regular basis.
I have no doubt about the shooting you described. Actually,I think every round mentioned in this thread has been used successfully on multiple occasions.
Thanks for your input,sir.
I have no doubt about the shooting you described. Actually,I think every round mentioned in this thread has been used successfully on multiple occasions.
Thanks for your input,sir.
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