bearmn56
Member
Which Gen3 pistols can handle this ammo? Seems to be more and more of this higher pressure ''self defense'' ammo out there from the major manufacturers and specialty loaders like Underwood. Bill, Montana Territory
-
Forum Update: We've upgraded the software to improve security, performance, and the overall experience.
👉 Read why we made the change | Support the Forum
9mm +P+ Ammo
- Thread starter bearmn56
- Start date
Register to hide this ad
Lots of people gonna show up soon and tell you there’s no such thing as +p+ ammo. It’ll be fine to shoot . . .
(ducks and covers . . . )
(ducks and covers . . . )
My thoughts are why subject the firearm to the increased wear & tear of over-pressure ammo when testing shows that the terminal ballistic performance of these loads is rather lacking when compared with the standard pressure heavier bullet loads.
See here and note the degree of bullet expansion and depth of penetration particularly of the Winchester 147gr RA9T and the Federal HST 150gr loading in comparison to the rest.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm
Cheers
Bill
See here and note the degree of bullet expansion and depth of penetration particularly of the Winchester 147gr RA9T and the Federal HST 150gr loading in comparison to the rest.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm
Cheers
Bill
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2015
- Messages
- 1,330
- Reaction score
- 1,536
This was recently discussed in the ammo forum at +p 9mm .
Since there is no spec for +P+ no gun manufacturer will say it is OK. It would be like signing an open check. Even if the current crop of +P+ ammo is fine in M&Ps there is no way for S&W to know if some boutique ammo maker might make even hotter loads labeled +P+ in the future.
I would stay away from +P+ loads. While increased wear is a risk most people will not shoot enough for that to be a problem. The bigger risk is that a gun designed for regular and +P pressure specs might not be as reliable when fed ammo that exceeds those pressure limits.
Since there is no spec for +P+ no gun manufacturer will say it is OK. It would be like signing an open check. Even if the current crop of +P+ ammo is fine in M&Ps there is no way for S&W to know if some boutique ammo maker might make even hotter loads labeled +P+ in the future.
I would stay away from +P+ loads. While increased wear is a risk most people will not shoot enough for that to be a problem. The bigger risk is that a gun designed for regular and +P pressure specs might not be as reliable when fed ammo that exceeds those pressure limits.
gunhobbit
Member
But ... But ... I don't expect to ever be attacked by ballistic gel!!!!!
OP: I've got a small stash of Federal 115gr. +P+ I shoot on occasion, but it does seem that there's a lot of wear-and-tear reported, for not all that much gain when defending oneself against ravening cubes of jello....
It's probably not horrible for the gun - but why bother?
The W-W 115 JHP +P+ was 40,000 cup. When we were issued the 5904 one of our range guys decided to document every round fired thru his 5904 to see how long it would last. When he retired he had a documented 80,000 rds thru his stock 5904. Only thing he had done was replace springs and replaced the barrel at about 50,000 after accuracy started dropping off because the rifling was so worn. Not saying every 5904 will run that long on +P+ but at least 1 did that was documented number of rds.
If you can afford to shoot 80,000 of +P+ then the price of a 5904 is not a factor.
If you can afford to shoot 80,000 of +P+ then the price of a 5904 is not a factor.
I think the Illinois State Police ran tons of +P+ 9x19 through their 39-2 and 439 pistols without problems. The S&W pistols are very well built and will withstand such ammo. With modern hollow point bullets, +P+ pressures are no longer required for reliable expansion. In fact, with modern bullets +P gets only slightly better expansion, but at the expense of decreased penetration.
Thanks to BMCM on the link to the Lucky Gunner 9mm & 40s&w ammo tests. I looked the info over carefully and took some notes. Now it's time to go to the local sporting goods stores and see what is actually available. I have always been a fan of heavier per caliber bullets. However, I purchased 500 40 caliber 165gr HAP bullets on Gunbroker. Have been working up some loads using Longshot. With published loads I have been getting some good velocities. These bullets have a reputation for good expansion. Have loaded lots of plinker 9mm.....but with commercial plinking ammo available at around 15 cents a round, I just don't bother. My carry 9mm ammo will undoubtedly be commercial stuff....strongly influenced by the Lucky Gunner tests. Bill, Montana Territory
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2007
- Messages
- 27,660
- Reaction score
- 21,273
If you look at the generic S & W semi-automatic pistol manual of the era, it states + P (because there is a standard measurement for this) is OK but will accelerate wear, and + P + is not recommended. This type of information makes sense from a mechanical, legal and warranty standpoint...not to say you can't use it, but the upside from + P seems minimal. Good luck in your ammo selection.
gunhobbit
Member
Because it doesn't fit in 9mmP firearms?
Maybe something could be cobbled together, at great expense, using a 45XX frame and slide, but I think you'd have to be having a custom barrel made. Probably magazines, too.
Likely not worth the expense for the smallish improvement in ballistics.
Relax, there are lots of +P+ loadings, and most are safe to shoot in well-made modern arms. What is missing is a universally recognized pressure standard for +P+, so the ammo manufacturer sets their own standards, and you need to know what that is to make an informed choice.
Some GIs got their hands on some obscure +P+ made for submachine guns and blew the slides off early M9 Berettas, right into the shooters face. There is no guarantee that any given +P+ will be safe in your gun, so it is a case-by-case risk.
Update...took my notes on 9mm ammo from the Lucky Gunner tests to some local sporting goods stores....none of the better 9mm SD rounds to be had...they just don't carry them. Hmmmmm....so, I searched on Gunbroker for some components. Spectre supply had 147gr 9mm HST bullets for sale for about 10 cents delivered, in lots of 500. Got some coming. Also, found 500 fully processed, ready to load, FC 9mm nickel casings for 8 cents delivered. Hogdgon's reloading data center says I can get about 1000fps using Longshot and this bullet from a 4" barrel. This is with STANDARD pressure. Load development is in my future! Bill, Montana Territory
Try In stock ammo, guns, magazines, and reloading supplies : AmmoSeek.com
Or... just google search this "RA9T"
Cheers
Bill
Or... just google search this "RA9T"
Cheers
Bill
Uh, guys.............+P+ ammunition originated in the dim, dark days before reliable expanding bullet designs. The only way they had back then to make the current bullets expand was to drive them faster. They also didn't have the powders that are widely available tody.
The currently available products by major manufacturers at lesser pressures will work fine for your purposes. They're the one's who win law enforcement ammo bids. Remember where you put the bullet is much more important than diameter, velocity, pressure or trendiest design/ad campaign. Speaking of which, the HAP bullet is NOT designed for expansion, at least according to my latest Hornaday catalog.
FWIW, 9 x 19 mm+P is pretty much the same as European 9mm/9mm NATO.
There are any number of online ammo sources for those whose LGS doesn't stock certain items. Ammunition to Go, Ammoman, Midway, Streicher Police Supply, etc.
The currently available products by major manufacturers at lesser pressures will work fine for your purposes. They're the one's who win law enforcement ammo bids. Remember where you put the bullet is much more important than diameter, velocity, pressure or trendiest design/ad campaign. Speaking of which, the HAP bullet is NOT designed for expansion, at least according to my latest Hornaday catalog.
FWIW, 9 x 19 mm+P is pretty much the same as European 9mm/9mm NATO.
There are any number of online ammo sources for those whose LGS doesn't stock certain items. Ammunition to Go, Ammoman, Midway, Streicher Police Supply, etc.
Last edited:
It looks like that one can achieve factory ballistics without any exotic +p+ handloads. Hodgdon's posts some very nice data in their loading data center. I just bought 500 147gr 9mm HST bullets at about 11c each and 500 FC nickel brass for about 8c. With standard published loads, I should be able to get at least 1000fps with the 147 HST in a 4" barrel (and only a little less in a 3.5" barrel). This should allow me to duplicate factory 9mm HST ammo.....at about 25c per round (instead of some 70c). Lots of cheaper practice and no extra wear and tear on my 909, and 3914 Ladysmith (and other unmentionable 9mms as well
). Bill, Montana Territory.
). Bill, Montana Territory.If. More horsepower is wanted, why not just buy a bigger gun.
Truth!!!!!
Echo40
Member
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2017
- Messages
- 4,032
- Reaction score
- 7,823
This. If you want more power, then just take your M&P9 to your LGS and trade it for an M&P40 or M&P45. The M&P40 they may even be willing to throw in some ammo for to sweeten the deal (depending on the popularity of .40 S&W in your area) since 9mm is more popular these days.
Honestly, all running +P+ ammo through your M&P9 is going to do is wear it out a lot faster, with equal or greater recoil than a .40cal.
+P ammo in general is basically just the futile attempt to make a cartridge into something it's not. If you start to think that +P let alone +P+ ammo is necessary, then you might as well just stop right there and begin seeking a more powerful cartridge.
