9mm PPC accurate ammo

CQB,

I have been shooting PPC in earnest for about 12 years. First tried out for the Border Patrol Team in 1989, but found PPC too boring, so I shot Action Pistol instead. One day I woke up and decided I needed the "boring" discipline of PPC and the game has been kicking my butt ever since. I made the Michigan Governor's 20 all three years I worked there, and have made the California Gov's 20 the last two years.

I'll be glad to offer you any advice I can, its free and you'll get what you pay for or your money back.
 
Originally posted by MKT:
CQB,

I have been shooting PPC in earnest for about 12 years. First tried out for the Border Patrol Team in 1989, but found PPC too boring, so I shot Action Pistol instead. One day I woke up and decided I needed the "boring" discipline of PPC and the game has been kicking my butt ever since. I made the Michigan Governor's 20 all three years I worked there, and have made the California Gov's 20 the last two years.

I'll be glad to offer you any advice I can, its free and you'll get what you pay for or your money back.

You BP shooters can shoot. On my last event in June 08, to my right was a BP shooting a 586 he borrowed in the duty revovler match.

I screwed up and used different ammo than I trained with and my entire 25 yd group printed high! urgggghhhhhhhhhh!

He knocked the X out!

He did not bring a semi so he watched.

I do very well at 7 and 25 yds and the 50 is where my scores drop. I have been using a fixed sight gun, but I will soon have a tri rear.

I may need guidance setting the rear sight since I have no knowledge with the aristocrat.

the gun builder said I can shoot point of aim at 25 with the rear and I plan a neck hold at 50. I assume at the 7, I just set to aim 10 ring to drop in the X.

if I have a weak area at the 50, it will be from sitting. just cant get comfortable. I used the arms around the knee position and find myself slowly falling back on every shot (with recoil) and have to re-grab another bite for the next shot.

Since my fixed sighted gun (45acp 1911) would not drop rounds into the X/10 ring from a neck hold, I had to drop the front sight to about 8ish if I was shooting ball and of course with no fine sight alignment there, I had no real grouping.

I am left eye dominant but right handed, but I do well shooting prone left handed since I am a big guy and could not get my head down far enough for a right handed prone shot.

any guidance will be greatly appreciated.
 
Originally posted by SW CQB 45:
You BP shooters can shoot.

So it has been said....all the way back into the mid 1920's.
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I do very well at 7 and 25 yds and the 50 is where my scores drop. I have been using a fixed sight gun, but I will soon have a tri rear.

You'll love the tri-set sight once you have it dialed in. Make sure you always return it to position 2 at the end of your shooting session. Position 2 will be the lowest setting (used for the 25 yard line) whether you shoot center or neck.

I may need guidance setting the rear sight since I have no knowledge with the aristocrat.

Setting it up is simple, first off run the main (gross) adjustment screw all the way down, then bring it up 1.5 to 2 full turns. I find 1.5 is usually a good starting place.

There are three small allen screws in the sight, each marked 1, 2 and 3. Those marks correspond with the positions of the adjustment knob. Use position 1 for 7 and 15 yards (and 25 if shooting center), 2 for the 25 shooting neck hold and 3 for the 50.

I start at the 7, run off a couple quick and get it close to center, then repeat from the 15. Just get them close fine tune later. You'll find the rear sight is pretty well raised in position 1.

At the 25 I fire my sighters from strng hand baracade. Two shots at a time and tweaking the little allen screw after each two. By the 25 you'll start adjusting the windage too.

Naturally, position 3 will be used for neck hold at the 50. Repeat the two shot exercise from your stringest position, tweaking the sights after each pair of shots. That will get you close and now you start over from the 7 and fine tune.

The main screw will have a arrow indicating the direction to turn to raise the bullet impact. That arrow refers only to the main screw. For the little allen screws it is opposite. Also, at the 50, it has been my experience that one flat of the allen equals one inch in bullet movement.

the gun builder said I can shoot point of aim at 25 with the rear and I plan a neck hold at 50. I assume at the 7, I just set to aim 10 ring to drop in the X.

You can shoot point of aim at 25, but why? The neck gives a very definite point of aim. Aim small, miss small, isn't that what they say?

I forgot to mention that I set my sights for the 7 and 15 so my aim point is the top of the X ring. That way the bullets are hitting below my line of sight.

if I have a weak area at the 50, it will be from sitting. just cant get comfortable. I used the arms around the knee position and find myself slowly falling back on every shot (with recoil) and have to re-grab another bite for the next shot.

The sitting should be one of your most stable positions. I would look at your leg as a baracade. It is hard to describe in writing how I get in position, it is more a visual thing. You can use either your right or left leg, most rightys use the left, I differ in that I shoot from my right on the outside of the leg. You'll have to try all variations until you find one that works for you.

Since you are rolling onto your back, that tells me you are doing something right in letting your body weight be carried by your arms and legs rather then using your gut muscles. That is a good thing. Watch the BP shooters in the sitting, pay attention to their footwear. A good set of boots add just the right counter balance. I don't even practice in tennie runners just a good heavy pair of duty boots.

Since my fixed sighted gun (45acp 1911) would not drop rounds into the X/10 ring from a neck hold, I had to drop the front sight to about 8ish if I was shooting ball and of course with no fine sight alignment there, I had no real grouping.

Remember how you did that, because if you ever shoot the Texas State Championships you'll be shooting a full Distinguished Match using a Duty revolver and a Duty auto rather than your Distinguished guns for the Texas Distinguished Matches.

I am left eye dominant but right handed, but I do well shooting prone left handed since I am a big guy and could not get my head down far enough for a right handed prone shot.

That should not be any problem. There are a bunch of cross-eye dominant shooters. It will just a be little adjustment to your left with the gun to keep it centered in front of your shooting eye, something I am sure you do naturally by now. Do practice shooting with your non-dominant eye too though because you never know when you'll be on a range where you might have to.

The range in Albuquerque come to mind. At the 25 yard line, left hand baracade, I have to shoot with my left eye because the tarhets are so far to my right that I can't lean out far enough to the left.

Hope this helps
 
MKT,

thanks for the detailed post. I have some bathroom reading material to catch up on now.

I wished I had my piece in front of me now.

I agree with your assessment at the 25 yd line. I just needed a kick in that direction.

My sitting position is desribed by you, its just not comfortable, but at least I know I have been doing it right. I do feel my feet coming off the ground sometimes and will look at some heavy boots to help with this.

thank you for the detailed sight setting instructions to get me started. I really appreciate it.

what do you mean by
Also, at the 50, it has been my experience that one flat of the allen equals one inch in bullet movement.
. Is "one flat" equal to one full turn of the allen wrench?

MKT, thanks for taking the time to address this as I would have had no clue on getting started. I am sure SA would be sending instructions for the sight, but wont know till it arrives.

do you have any video of yourself or another shooter using proper shooting stances in a match to fine tune my skills if I were to get a copy? I do have the John Pride video on DVD but was disappointed with the overall content.

I know I am still years away from bumping my scores up, but any advantage to get me started in the right direction would be great.

Respectfully,
Mike
 
Originally posted by SW CQB 45:
what do you mean by
Also, at the 50, it has been my experience that one flat of the allen equals one inch in bullet movement.
.
Is "one flat" equal to one full turn of the allen wrench?

do you have any video of yourself or another shooter using proper shooting stances in a match to fine tune my skills if I were to get a copy? I do have the John Pride video on DVD but was disappointed with the overall content.

I know I am still years away from bumping my scores up, but any advantage to get me started in the right direction would be great.

Mike,
When you look at the allen wrench, as it is sitting in the screw, there are six flat sides to the wrench. When you turn the allen wrench, turn it the the direction you need and watch the flats. One sixth of a turn is one flat, one flat moves the impact about one inch. It is a rough gauge and probably different for everyone due to the way folks look through the sights, but it'll get you close.

John gave me a copy of his video but I have never watched it. I plan to some day, to see if he has any mental aspect tips. I don't have any video of myself shooting, might have a picture or two. I have often thought about running video of my target to help figure out the occasional 8 I throw (clearly a trigger jerk, but I sure don't feel it).

Proper stances are widely varied. For PPC, most folks use a full isosceles stance, including the baracade positions. For the baracade do not try to walk the tight rope (feet in front of one another) as you'll be very unstable. You also have to make sure your feet are inside the foul line, as in behind the baracade, but the perfect position is an adaptation to each individual shooter. What works for me may not work for you.

With practice and time the scores will come. It seems the harder I try to shoot a perfect stage the less headway I make. Just relax, watch the front sight and be smooth on the trigger. Get your aim points down pat and be consistent.

We have created a slight thread drift, but it is your post LOL. Feel free to take it to email if you want.
 
thanks Mike

I get the flat now.

good info you have provided and yes we veered off course, like those occasional 8's
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me, I throw an occasional 7
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or two on my fixed sight 1911.
 
Mike,

That ammo in a black box with white end labels? Does it also have a sticker next to the word Atlanta with the bullet info and lot #?

Earlier when I stated we had Georgia Arms build some ammo I was mistaken. As soon as I read your last post it tripped my memory. I went out to the ammo supply and found my remaining supply of the test ammo. It is Atlanta Arms not Georgia Arms. This is the stuff that hits to the sights (when set for 147s) when little recoil. It is very dirty ammo though. Something to do with the flash suppressor I think.

When you shoot through a couple three boxes the insides of your gun will look like it sat outside in the East Texas spring, all of the yellow particles looks like pine pollen. It mau be dirty, but it is good shooting ammo. I would suggest not starting out with it though.

Some of the team, with newer guns or heavier recoil springs had some minor feeding problems and the slides would not lock back on the last shot. The light recoil not driving the slide fully to the rear. My gun has a lighter recoil spring and I still had a few incidences of failing to lock back. Not a problen if you are counting while shooting though.

Start the new gun out on full power factory ammo to ensure it is functioning correctly.
 
Originally posted by MKT:
Mike,

That ammo in a black box with white end labels? Does it also have a sticker next to the word Atlanta with the bullet info and lot #?

Yep.
Hornaday XTP
Lot #180608

I have about 500 of factory ball (blazer, white box and remington) that I was going to use first to break in my gun.

I will hold out on my AAA till after I got some rounds through the tube.
 
Originally posted by SW CQB 45:[
Yep.
Hornaday XTP
Lot #180608

Same stuff I have sitting here. Only a few folks that I know have any of it
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. It is good shooting stuff.
 
the guy who gave it to me is someone I met years ago and he invited me to shoot with their club about 1.5 hrs away.

I told him about my gun, and he had a box of this stuff and he said to try it out.

its starline brass, so it probably brand new and not reman brass.
 
Sgt Preston back again. I tried to some more rounds thru the new SA 1011 x 9mm yesterday, but the gun range was packed & I decided not to wait two hours for a spot. So I went back today & continued my trial. The gun functions perfectly on my load & my load seems to be excellent at 10 yards. I have red dot scopes on all my other guns & am shooting this one with open sights & old eye balls. I will need to shoot this gun off a rest to determine the overall load accuracy. But rest assured that this load is a good place to start. Hope this helps. Sgt Preston USMC LLA
 
Originally posted by Sgt Preston:
Sgt Preston back again. I tried to some more rounds thru the new SA 1011 x 9mm yesterday, but the gun range was packed & I decided not to wait two hours for a spot. So I went back today & continued my trial. The gun functions perfectly on my load & my load seems to be excellent at 10 yards. I have red dot scopes on all my other guns & am shooting this one with open sights & old eye balls. I will need to shoot this gun off a rest to determine the overall load accuracy. But rest assured that this load is a good place to start. Hope this helps. Sgt Preston USMC LLA

Sgt, was it this load you are using

I use 124 grained flat point copper plated Berrys' bullets. I load 4.2 grains of WIN 231 powder. I seat my bullets to an OAL of 1.090. And I crimp to .379 /.380.
 
CQB, I went through this a couple of years ago, and I'm still trying to find a PPC load that groups at least x-ring at 50 yards. Let me share with you my findings. First of all let say that I have the same guns you do a 5 inch and 6 inch Springfield PPC 1911, I also have the 5 and 6 inch S&W PPC9's. So I tested all my ammo with these four guns.

I started with 115 gr bullets and 231. That didn't work. I then tried 231 with 124 plated bullets that was a little better. I got a decient 25 yd group but the 50 was awfull. I then heard about Winchester Super Field (WSF) powder. I tried WSF with 124 plated and my groups got substancially better.

With more experimentation I've come up with a pretty good 50 yd. load, and is an excellent 25 yd load that shoots very tight at 25. Its 4.8 to 5.0 grs. of WSF and a Zero 125 JHP bullet OAl 1.095 with a light crimp .379/.380. The .2 grain variance is kinda gun dependent but, 4.8 is a good starting point. I think the secret to a good 9mm load is a premium bullet and a slower burning powder. I found 231 was to fast for 9mm. I read were some PPC shooters are using 6 grs of Power Pistol with a Hornady 124 fmjfp I don't remember what the OAL of that load is though. I haven't tried this load yet, as the componets are not readly available in my area. But I am going to order some Hornady 124 fmjfp bullets and find a source for Power Pistol and try it soon. As I said earlier I'm still tweaking my load, trying to find that accurate 9mm.

What I have been doing lately is practicing with 124 plated bullets from Extreme Bullets and 5 grs of WSF. It's a good practice load and the bullets are priced right, plus the company is close by so I don't have shipping charge issues. Again, it's a practice load and it does not group well at 50. WSF powder is all over, I buy mine at Sportsman Wharehouse. I get the Zero bullets direct for Zero, there located in Alabama, good people to deal with. Tell them your LEO shooting PPC and they will take care of you. If you can't get the Zero bullets. Any premuim bullet should be ok with the WSF powder.

Over last Three PPC seasons I have been using my reloads in the 1500 match at 25 yds and in, and using factory Win. 147's at 50. The reason I still use factory at 50 yds. is that I'm still not satified with my load and I can't make it shoot as tight as factory. My load is good but you know how competitors are now, I'ts become a head thing with me.

Oh and I've shot quiet a few years with MKT he know what he's talking about and his advise about setting your sights is spot on, you can take everything he tells you to the bank.

Hope I've helped you some, don't get discoureged, you'll have fun.
Paul4895
 
Paul,

thanks for the post. You BP too?

I did not know there was still many PPCers on the forum.

It was recently discussed at Brownsville by a group at the TX Police Games that PPC was a dieing catagory.

There was well over 3 to 1 that signed up for the tactical over the duty stuff and PPC.

the guy who won the tactical shot a plain jane colt and whipped alot of folks who showed up with high dollar SVI's and other home made jobbers.

YES, I will take any advice. I am still a novice but want to improve my standings. I dont care much for trophies. I just want to walk away knowing I did the best I could.

I am hoping this high $$ (to me) 1911 will improve my scores.

take care
 
CQB, No not BP. I'm a retired Deputy Sheriff. I was with Santa Cruz County, Ca. Sheriff's Office for 31yrs. I shot my first PPC match in 1971. I guess I'm dating myself. Anyway MKT and I shoot the PPC matches in California. Your right PPC is dieing. In California up to a couple of years ago we would have 20 PPC mathces thru the spring/summer. Now I think were down to about 16 matches, for this year. We used to have great participation and used to have to host a match over a 2 day period. Now we get 35 to 40 shooters for a match and we can pretty much do a match in one day.

One thing PPC will do for you, is greatly enhance your accuracy and gun handling skills. So if you decide to do some of the action shooting stuff, like ipsc or idpa, you'll already be there as far the basic skills go, you'll just have to kick the speed up some.
 
Mike,

I hate to hear that the Police Games are losing shooters in the PPC matches. I have a drawer full of medals from shooting the Police Games PPC Duty Gun matches. Lots of fun and great folks. Shoot me an email and give me the location of the 2009 games. I'd like to come and see if an old retired guy can still snag a medal or two!
 
The range in Albuquerque come to mind. At the 25 yard line, left hand baracade, I have to shoot with my left eye because the tarhets are so far to my right that I can't lean out far enough to the left.

Sounds like Iowa and Camp Dodge all over again!
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