9mm std vs +P

As many have said, I leave my 3.8" XD loaded with 147gr standard pressure Ranger T loads.

I have run +P rounds through my two pistols (3.8 and 4.5") and they are hotter for sure, in the "notably hotter" range are the +P+ rounds like the Ranger series and the Federal 9BPLE round.

I just ran some of the 9BPLE through my XD sub last week and I can assure you, the recoil difference is notable.
 
typetwelve said:
As many have said, I leave my 3.8" XD loaded with 147gr standard pressure Ranger T loads.

I have run +P rounds through my two pistols (3.8 and 4.5") and they are hotter for sure, in the "notably hotter" range are the +P+ rounds like the Ranger series and the Federal 9BPLE round.

I just ran some of the 9BPLE through my XD sub last week and I can assure you, the recoil difference is notable.
Click to expand...

ispcapt said:
You need to find another attorney. That one clearly doesn't have a clue about shooting cases.
What this "attorney" is saying is you use your firearm in a self defense situation and the prosecutor is going to argue that you did not intend to shoot the person, it was an accident because your firearm had a light trigger. That makes absolutely no sense. No prosecutor is going to argue an accidental shooting if you're saying you were in fear of your life and the use of deadly force was justified. Find another attorney.
The question is did you intentionally shoot the person. Trigger pull weight has nothing to do with it. If you did not intend to shoot the person then it doesn't matter trigger pull either. The question in shooting cases is would a reasonable person believe they were in fear of their life or great bodily harm where the use of deadly force is justified.
If you say you didn't intend to shoot the person then trigger weight won't matter either. At trial it's either you were justified using deadly force or you weren't.
Click to expand...

Interesting comment. I suggest folks read Massad Ayoob's commentary (sticky) on this subject in the Self Defense forum. Lightening a trigger on a SD gun is just one more arrow in the quiver of a prosecutor or civil case. While your attorney may win eventually why arm the prosecution? Ayoob has the experience and reputation to know what he's talking about. Just no reason to lighten a trigger below the manufactures recommend minimum pull, IMHO, on a SD gun.
 
If the shooting and injury was justified, this is a nonissue. If the shooting and injury were not justified, it’s still a nonissue. You’re either no billed or paying the piper for shooting someone you shouldn’t have. I have never had a negligent discharge with a standard Glock issue or a Glock with a 3.5 lb connector, but I’m pretty sure the penalty would be the same either way as there are not separate laws and penalties for each.
 
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Johnrh said:
Interesting comment. I suggest folks read Massad Ayoob's commentary (sticky) on this subject in the Self Defense forum. Lightening a trigger on a SD gun is just one more arrow in the quiver of a prosecutor or civil case. While your attorney may win eventually why arm the prosecution? Ayoob has the experience and reputation to know what he's talking about. Just no reason to lighten a trigger below the manufactures recommend minimum pull, IMHO, on a SD gun.
Click to expand...
The issue in a prosecution is whether the use of deadly force was justified. If you are charged and admit you shot a person because you were in danger of death or great bodily harm then the prosecution sure as heck isn't going to argue that "no you didn't really mean to shoot the person, it was an accident." That argument makes absolutely no sense. Think about it. Anyone with a lick of common sense and reasoning will see the fallacy of thinking the prosecution is going to argue an accident. If a person doesn't see the silliness in that argument then they've watched too much TV and believed too much internet BS from those who don't know.
If the use of deadly force is justified then it doesn't matter if you shoot them or hit them with a 9 iron. You're protecting yourself from death or great bodily harm. The instrument you use is irrelevant. It's the act and whether it was justified.
The only time a light trigger may come into argument is if you say you never intended to shoot the person, you had no justification to defend yourself but because of the light trigger the gun went off when you did not intend for it to fire. The issue in that case is even bigger. You used deadly force when none was justified nor intended.
Been thru enough actual shooting investigations. I didn't get my facts from reading books or other people's reports.
 
Manslaughter is manslaughter regardless. You killed someone without intent or malice. Trigger pull weight is irrelevant to the crime and punishment.
 
Johnrh said:
Interesting comment. I suggest folks read Massad Ayoob's commentary (sticky) on this subject in the Self Defense forum. Lightening a trigger on a SD gun is just one more arrow in the quiver of a prosecutor or civil case. While your attorney may win eventually why arm the prosecution? Ayoob has the experience and reputation to know what he's talking about. Just no reason to lighten a trigger below the manufactures recommend minimum pull, IMHO, on a SD gun.
Click to expand...

As stated in other's comments if your justified the condition of your gun really doesn't matter. A prosecutor would have to somehow have to convince the jury that your "trigger job" somehow made you decide to murder someone. Ayoob is a long time gun writer, part-time cop in a very small town in New Hampshire, a competitive shooter who uses highly modified guns, that has become a court recognized expert. He is also the one who says not to use reloads or guns with bad names but will also tell you you can't go wrong by carrying what your local PD carries.

All my revolvers have at one time or another had some trigger work. They are smoother and as such feel lighter but all springs are stock.
 
I am not an internet expert, also I am not into self marketing. Have never missed a snake with a 357 sig, and the snake still died from concussion. So my word is not worth much. Pick the ammo that makes you feel the most comfortable, as long as it is safe. Make sure you can hit CNS with that round, and the rest does not matter.

As has been repeated many times justified is justified. Internet experts, and self marketing experts are not the ones who are going to save your butt.
 
My wife is right. I should shut up and stop explaining myself because I end up doing what I want anyway.
Buy the way, I put another 100 rounds (standard) thru the P365 today without incident and I really like it.
 
I can't quantify it....

...off the top of my head but I know that out of a short barrel the difference is about 20 fps maybe a little more but not much. I reload and I've tried to reach better velocities compared to good factory ammo. In a short barrel you can add bang and recoil but it doesn't get that much velocity. You can pack in the powder and the reward is small. More important may be just having a round that isn't so raucous that you can hold and shoot follow ups better.

I have some small guns, especially an alloy .38 that is uncomfortable to shoot standard and downright painful to shoot +P out of.
 
Always nice to know that your ammo will cycle in your weapon
without any problems.
The type of ammo used is the big question.
Do you want a JHP bullet to expand and penetrate at 3" barrel speeds?
There is also a heavy mass for deep penetration with or with out expansion.

Lots of bullet study is needed and maybe some water jugs are
in the works, for a final decision on your 3" SD selection.

A 3" can work but it is one reason I moved up to a 3.5" 9mm pistol......
for the Speer GD ammo with a copper jacket .
My 3.5" with the Speer #23611 Short Barrel +P ammo gets 1124fps.
 
I don’t feel much difference at all in recoil between standard pressure, +P, or +P+...they all just feel like 9mm to me.
My Glock 26 is loaded with +P 147gn HST, which it shoots very well.
Previously, my favorite 9mm load was the Ranger +P+ 127gn load. I shot this in many different nines over the years, HiPower, 92FS, Glock...
I just haven’t seen any for sale for a while.
 
joe44va said:
Has to do with the prosecutor trying to prove the gun was fired negligently because it was modified and could be fired single action (hair trigger).
Click to expand...

So remove single action capability. S&W did make DAO only hammers for some of their guns. All/most of their parts went to Numrich, check for them or Jack First. Or, have the hammer or trigger reworked-the hammer can be screwed up by someone who thinks they know what they're doing, causing DA isues.

To P or +P.......there's enough brand to brand/lot to lot/product line to product line variation in velocities that you really need a chronograph to figure out what you are getting out of your firearm with any given brand/lot. From what I've seen, most +P loads tend to deliver ballistics closer to what most makers claim for their standard velocities. There are exceptions.

Some smaller pistols have slide velocity/feeding problems with one type or the other. This is something you learn by trial and error, guided by the owners manual.

As some have noted, some smaller pistols are distinctly unpleasant and/or inaccurate in your hands with +P. Again, trial and error.

Finally: the most important item in self defense is bullet placement. Looking for magic bullets is time better spent on practice.
 
I contend......

ispcapt said:
You need to find another attorney. That one clearly doesn't have a clue about shooting cases.
What this "attorney" is saying is you use your firearm in a self defense situation and the prosecutor is going to argue that you did not intend to shoot the person, it was an accident because your firearm had a light trigger. That makes absolutely no sense. No prosecutor is going to argue an accidental shooting if you're saying you were in fear of your life and the use of deadly force was justified. Find another attorney.
The question is did you intentionally shoot the person. Trigger pull weight has nothing to do with it. If you did not intend to shoot the person then it doesn't matter trigger pull either. The question in shooting cases is would a reasonable person believe they were in fear of their life or great bodily harm where the use of deadly force is justified.
If you say you didn't intend to shoot the person then trigger weight won't matter either. At trial it's either you were justified using deadly force or you weren't.
Click to expand...

Prosecutor: "I contend that in choosing to shoot your gun single action the hair trigger caused you to shoot my client."

Defendant: "I contend that either way I was intentionally going to shoot your client.":)
 
He's sort of combining criminal action and civil suit. Self defense is a 3 point problem, first survive Micky the mugger, do it in a manner that keeps the prosecutors office happy and then deal with the civil suit.

It's not unknown for prosecutors to allege a cocked gun/negligent discharge, this sets you up for aggravated assault (or whatever in your state) or manslaughter. [Of course you're claiming self defense, you're trying to cover your butt over your criminally negligent gun handling!] It's fairly common practice in a civil suit. Negligence increases the damages.
 
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stansdds said:
Fascinating how a thread about ammunition pressure ends up being a discourse in the potential legality of altering trigger pull. LOL!
Click to expand...

It's conversation.

It was the OP who introduced the topic of legality in a second post.

How many conversations that start out with comments on the weather eventually go elsewhere?

All of them, I hope.
 
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