A 38 Special Defensive Load

[LoneStar22]

I have kept Winchester 158gr LSWCHP ammo loaded in my revolvers for defensive purposes. Some months back I decided to "roll my own". I wanted to duplicate to the old FBI load which mirrors the Winchester factory load.
After reviewing the few available LSWCHP bullets, I decided on the Speer bullet. While I had not seen the bullet up close, the photo on the MidwayUSA site spiked my curiosity. The bullet has three drive bands, two of which are wide. In between the bottom two drive bands is an area that resembles a shallow lube grove.
After I received my 500 count box from MidwayUSA, I did some measurements. The bullet weighs and average 158.4grs. the diameter averaged .3585". I ran a sample batch of bullets through a .358" lube sizer die, and was able to deposit lube in the area between the two bottom drive bands.
I loaded these bullets in .38 Special cases over 5.4grs of Unique, seating to an OAL of 1.462".
At the range I chronographed three cylinders full and the average velocity was 964fps with an extreme spread of 54.4fps. At 7 yards six rounds cut one raged hole, repeated three times. The last test was one gallon water jugs 10 feet out from the front of the bench. The bullet passed through four jugs, coming to rest in the fifth jug. This test was repeated three times.
All bullets expanded, and the average of the expanded bullets is .598" in diameter. Bullet weight loss was relatively light, averaging 3.1grs loss.
All tests were with a 4-inch 686. Inspection of the barrel after all tests were completed showed no leading at all. I believe the lube I added was the reason. Granted l shot less than 40 rounds during this test so maybe this is not a good measure of non-leading a barrel. However since this test was to identify the potential of a defensive round, quantity on rounds fired is not as important as expansion and placement.

 

[Harrison]

I reload and shoot the speer 158gr LHPSWC from Midway on a regular basis. Why are you running them througha lubra sizer? They come with a dry lube already applied. They don't lead any of my 38 spec aor 357 mag revolvers, loaded, to +P+ velocity, as they come from the box.

 

[LoneStar22]

I reload and shoot the speer 158gr LHPSWC from Midway on a regular basis. Why are you running them througha lubra sizer? They come with a dry lube already applied. They don't lead any of my 38 spec aor 357 mag revolvers, loaded, to +P+ velocity, as they come from the box.

I had some big leading problems with dry lubed bullets some years back, and have never had much faith in dry lube on bullets. Plus I am a bit old fashioned and my mind tells me I need to lube lead bullets [grin].

 

[nitesite]

5.2-gr of Unique under a swaged 158 LSWC is a good load, but your 5.4-gr load sounds really good as well.

Thanks for the info. I'm a big believer that LSWCs and DEWCs in a .38-Special make durned good (if not great) defensive loads when driven faster than about 875-ish. Your 950+ would be even better!

 

[KSCowboy]

Sounds good to me. I think I'll try that with my cast 150 grain SWC-HPs and shoot 'em out of my snubbies.

 

[lebomm]

Leading? It's the case here where size DOES matter ! A cast or swaged bullet needs to be at bore size or .001" or .002" over to keep all that propellant gas behind the bullet. As soon as gases are allowed to pass the bullet base, they melt the bullet and deposit that lead in the bore.

Larry

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I load either a Speer or Hornady 158gr LSWC/HP bullet under HS-6 for my FBI duplicate. (I prefer Hornady) From a 2" barrel I clock the bullet @ an AV of 889 fps and 927 fps from a 4" M686.

 

[GyMac]

What charge weight using Win 231/HP-38 would get you to the FBI load?

 

[rasmith3442]

Don't forget Power Pistol

I use Power Pistol in .38 Spl., 9mm, and .45 ACP. Works great in them all. It is a slow, bulky powder, so the chances of double charging are reduced - but be sure to do a 100% visual inspection of every charged case before bullet seating.

S/F,

RAS

 

[ArchAngelCD]

What charge weight using Win 231/HP-38 would get you to the FBI load?

I don't know if W231 will get you there without pushing through the SAAMI pressure limits. I think W231 is too fast a powder to deliver the velocity we look for in the FBI load without going over pressure.

For example, on the Hodgdon site in the .38 Special +P section they list a jacketed bullet with both W231 and HS-6. Both are listed at over 18,000 CUP but the HS-6 is listed as delivering 120 fps more than the W231.

I highly suggest using a slower powder than W231 for an FBI replica load. If you don't like HS-6 try AA#5. Power Pistol and Longshot work well to but with jacketed bullets and not lead in my experiance so they really aren't for the FBI Load.

 

[GyMac]

U don't know id W231 will get you there without pushing through the SAAMI pressure limits. I think W231 is too fast a powder to deliver the velocity we look for in the FBI load without going over pressure.

For example, on the Hodgdon site in the .38 Special +P section they list a jacketed bullet with both W231 and HS-6. Both are listed at over 18,000 CUP but the HS-6 is listed as delivering 120 fps more than the W231.

I highly suggest using a slower powder than W231 for an FBI replica load. If you don't like HS-6 try AA#5. Power Pistol and Longshot work well to but with jacketed bullets and not lead in my experiance so they really aren't for the FBI Load.

I believe that you are right - just thought I'd ask. Win 231/HP-38 is a great powder, but the data for it is all over the map and it doesn't seem to be good for max velocity.

 

[LoneStar22]

What charge weight using Win 231/HP-38 would get you to the FBI load?

I agree with ArchAngelCD, W231/HP-38 burns too quickly to be used safely to duplicate the FBI load. BTW the MV for the FBI load is 890fps.
Using slower burning powders will achieve FBI load velocities and say within a safe pressure range.

 

[frankw]

Lonestar, How was the recoil and what do you think that load would be like in a lightweight Snubbie?

Thanks

 

[LoneStar22]

Lonestar, How was the recoil and what do you think that load would be like in a lightweight Snubbie?

Thanks

The recoil when fired from a 4-inch 686 is strong, but not abusive. I have emptied a cylinder as fast as I could accurately, at a 7yd target with a two-hand grip, and kept six rounds in a group I could cover with my palm. I use my palm as a benchmark for defensive groups. I have not fired this round from a snubbie, but suspect the recoil in a lightweight snubbie may be quite strong. But that said you may not be recoil sensitive, so my recommendation is to load a cylinder full and draw your own conclusions

 

[running iron]

I've settled on 5.5grs. of WSF with a 140gr. JHP in my model 67 with a 4" barrel. It's moving at around 950fps. I like the remington 140 jhp better than the Hornady 140 gr. bullet. They both are very accurate but the Remington bullet expands better in wet paper than the Hornady. The Remington bullet has the scalloped edges where the copper meets the lead on the bullet. These a +P and from Speer data. I know I changed the subject, but my point is there are better loads out there now days for self defense IMO.

 

[shotslow]

Right now my defensive 38 load is 5.1 grains Win231 with a 125 grain HP. That is .1 grain shy of a +P load. The gun is a Ruger LCR. (Sorry, I got it before S&W came out with their latest j-frame) But I have 686's and a 625 to make up for it. The question is, does a faster powder work better in a short barrel 38 special than a slower burning powder?

I have loaded some 158 gr SWC with Trail Boss. (4.2 g is max) I was loading Cowboy rounds and made a box of these to see how they would shoot in the LCR. The answer is great. From 7 to 12 yards got 3 inch groups shooting fast. (Well fast for me) Trouble is they are too high. The 125 gr bullets are closer to POA. Similar results in accuracy. I have shot more 125 gr bullets and have a lot of not so 3 in groups.

What is a good 38 spec defensive load in a short barreled revolver (3" or less)? The ones mentioned above sound ok to me.

 

[fredj338]

I loaded these bullets in .38 Special cases over 5.4grs of Unique, seating to an OAL of 1.462".
At the range I chronographed three cylinders full and the average velocity was 964fps with an extreme spread of 54.4fps. At 7 yards six rounds cut one raged hole, repeated three times. The last test was one gallon water jugs 10 feet out from the front of the bench. The bullet passed through four jugs, coming to rest in the fifth jug. This test was repeated three times.
.

That i spretty much the load I use, that or 5.5gr in 357mag cases for about 900fps in a snubby. The Speer bullet does pretty well. I typ. use a 158grLSWC for practice & just use factory 38sp+P loads for the odd time I do carry the snub.

 

[Mule88]

Ive been using 5 gns of Universal Clays with great results. Burns clean and great accuracy.

 

[CCV]

6.0 grains of Power Pistol under that 158 grain Speer SWC HP sings in my 6" K38.

 

[KSCowboy]

I finally got around to loading and shooting the original poster's load of 5.4 grains Unique under cast Lee 150 grain SWC-HP.

Shot them out of my Detective Special and they are plenty accurate and easy recoiling.

I'll test them out on some milk jugs of water to get a relative feel for penetration and expansion and post pics and conclusions.