A Brit-made six-gun that I love, the Enfield No. 2 MK I*

[les.b]

David:

I have to admit that my collection of Webley's is limited to the two you see here, but as I said in post #4 above, an earlier Webley MK IV was one of my first handguns when I was very young. Seeing the posts of you and Texas Star, M1A, Cyrano and others has awakened my interest. I think that I will get that book that you mentioned, and read up a little on these most interesting British firearms. When I was a kid, I read all of the Sherlock Holmes stories, and was always fascinated by the Victorian era, Scotland Yard, and so forth. As an adult I traveled to (among many countries) England, where I obtained a graduate degree at Leicester University. One of my classmates was a senior officer at the London Metropolitan Police ... Scotland Yard, and I have had the great opportunity to vist there and dine in Peeler's Lounge, and tour the Black Museum. I am still very much interested in English history, and these firearms evoke images of past British glory. Thanks again for starting this thread... I hope that it stays alive for awhile, and others share some of their Enfields and Webley's with us.

Regards...Les

 

[2152hq]

The Webley MkIII 38 was originaly considered for Brit military use as a possible replacement for the .455 Webley MkVI.
The Commission looking for a replacement in the years after WW1 liked the light weight MkIII and being from the favored Webley company, it was not much of a battle for first place.
Some design details were recommended to the MkIII before acceptance.

What the Brit Gov't did then was to take Webleys MkIII and the design changes and give them to their RSAF Enfield facility.
There they came up with their 'own design' for an issue 38cal sidearm,,the 'Enfield No2MkI' ,obviously heavily based on Webleys guns and designs.
The 'Enfield No2MkI was accepted by the Gov't.
Webley cried foul.
War broke out and the Gov't needed more handguns than they themselves could mfgr. So they let out contracts to Webley for their '38cal MkIV' revolver,, the almost was standard issue revolver.
The Webley MkIV38 became secondardy issue but great numbers were made.
Webley marked (most of their) MkIV 38 revolvers made during WW2 as 'War Finish'. A proud company,,as if to say we can and do much better than this.

Webley had a lawsuit against the gov't over the whole 'you stole our idea' thing. It was settled some years later with a payment made to the Webley company IIRC.

 

[M1A]

Thank you 2152. I will add that info to my binder. I get a bit here a sentence there. Never found any lengthy discussion of the Mark III, but it all adds up.
I may have enough to write my own paragraph.
Great thread.

 

[dabney]

In years gone by, I was the Chief of Police in a small mill town here in Georgia. This would be the high point of my LE career, in those days in Bibb City. This town was composed mainly of mill workers and their families. I was honored to serve those wonderful people as their Chief, and would spend the best years of my life as their servant. This small, quaint city was very similar to the make-believe town of Mayberry on the "Andy Griffin Show" that still airs. There was an elderly, retired mill hand who lived there, that was also a WW2 vet. This gentleman was part of a community of people that loved this nation and championed the "American Way" every day that they lived. I come to tears remembering those God-fearing, Christ-loving people. Many had come from outside the immediate area, around Dothan, Eufaula, Auburn, and Pittsview Alabama during the "depression" of the 1930's. Many of the citizens that composed Bibb City were elderly and had already retired. This was during the early 1980's, and the gent mentioned earlier, and I, became good friends during my tenure there. He protected his home with but two firearms, an M-1 Carbine, manufactured by Winchester, and a British Enfield No. 2 MK I* Model. Being a WW2 vet, he had a warm spot for both of his guns, He had packed the M-1 during the War, and was given this Enfield .380 by a British Officer. A man that he soldiered along side while stationed in England and became close friends with. My friend told me that he had managed to get this Enfield back home in stealth. It was a "special" firearm near and dear to him in many ways. I would sometimes go to his house and pick him and his Enfield up, together, in the squad car, we all went to the river bank (Chattahoochee) and cap off a few rounds with that break-top Brit for a little plinking fun down on the river. I let him shoot my Colt Official Police (duty arm) and I got to shoot his treasure. This is where my love for the Enfield first developed. Each time I get my Enfields out for cleaning, I think of my elderly friend from a special time period in my life. All I can say about this is, What a man! What a gun! No longer present in this world, but always residing within my heart. My "special" Enfield story and I hope you enjoyed it.

David

 

[les.b]

Wow, David, that is a great story, and the sort of story that was probably once much more common than today. I remember my dad telling me, when I was just a youngster, that the world was "going to **** in a handbasket ". Although I would dearly love to have him back with me today, (he passed in 1972), I don't know what he would make of our society that has evolved in the 44 years since I lost him. Stories like that, and men like you and your friend are becoming rarer every day.

Thanks again for sharing, and I hope that others share stories and photos of their Enfields and Webleys with us.

 

[Texas Star]

Some minor points...

First, it was the improved MK IV .38 that Webley submitted to the govt. , not the MK III from which the new gun was developed.

Next, a post above said that Kandahar is in Egypt. It's in Afghanistan, and is in fact where Lt. Col. Vincent Fosbery, VC earned his Victoria Cross for gallantry.

I am a little puzzled at the flat military finish on Les's MK. IV .38 with four-inch barrel. Usually, guns with that barrel length with that late hammer, have the normal commercial blue finish. If this is an Israeli gun, maybe they specified that finish or it may be refinished. Note that some postwar MK IV .38's for the Singapore police were fitted with a crossbolt safety.

Finally, I really, really wish that anyone interested in this subject or in handguns in general, would buy Geoffrey Boothroyd's, "The Handgun", Crown Publishers, about 1970. It'll probably be the best investment that you ever make in a book on handgun history. Elmer Keith's, "Sixguns", revised 1961 edition, should be your second gun book, before you buy specialized books on S&W's.

I like Webley and the firm had a rich history. I think their last revolvers were made for Navy Arms about 1975. They came in a distinctive box. Shotgun production may have continued longer.

 

[2152hq]

Some minor points...

First, it was the improved MK IV .38 that Webley submitted to the govt. , not the MK III from which the new gun was developed.

That would be the MkIII with the 'requested design changes'.

 

[dabney]

Per Stamps/Skennerton Book on the ".380 Enfield No. 2 Revolver" on page 9 (paperback edition):

"WEBLEY & SCOTT SUBMITTED A SAMPLE .38 REVOLVER TO THE WAR OFFICE ON JULY 19, 1921, ALONG WITH 200-ROUNDS OF .38 S&W AMMUNITION; IT WAS A (MODIFIED) MARK III HINGED FRAME, SELF EJECTING POCKET MODEL.....

This was the first submission and a few months later W&S would submit the "new" MK IV Model. From the above book on the same page number;

A FURTHER SAMPLE, A NEW MARK IV MODEL OF THE WEBLEY .38 REVOLVER, WAS FORWARDED IN JANUARY 1922 AND TESTS WERE PERFORMED AT THE SMALL ARMS SCHOOL, HYTHE.

The MK III .380 Webley, with some unidentified mods, went first followed closely by the MK IV. From Stamps/Skennerton the Enfield No. 2 .380 was most definitely influenced by the MK IV Webley Model. Later, as pointed out by post author, a court of British Law ruled in favor of W&S and a small award was rendered to W&S. For me, as a collector of both Brit firearms, the history is very interesting. So is my friends posts here on this highly favored British revolver. Each time someone posts on this subject matter, I profit in knowledge greatly. Thanks to all!

David

 

[Andrew2105]

Some minor points...

Snipped!
"Finally, I really, really wish that anyone interested in this subject or in handguns in general, would buy Geoffrey Boothroyd's, "The Handgun", Crown Publishers, about 1970. It'll probably be the best investment that you ever make in a book on handgun history. Elmer Keith's, "Sixguns", revised 1961 edition, should be your second gun book, before you buy specialized books on S&W's."

From me.
Mr Boothroyd (if I'm not mistaken) was an advisor to Ian Flemming for firearms knowledge. In "From Russia With Love" the armorer who provided the Walther PPK to replace "that Damned Beretta" was identified as Boothroyd. In subsequent movies the more familliar "Q" character appeared.

Thread Drift..Sorry.

 

[les.b]

Some minor points...

Snipped!
"Finally, I really, really wish that anyone interested in this subject or in handguns in general, would buy Geoffrey Boothroyd's, "The Handgun", Crown Publishers, about 1970. It'll probably be the best investment that you ever make in a book on handgun history. Elmer Keith's, "Sixguns", revised 1961 edition, should be your second gun book, before you buy specialized books on S&W's."

From me.
Mr Boothroyd (if I'm not mistaken) was an advisor to Ian Flemming for firearms knowledge. In "From Russia With Love" the armorer who provided the Walther PPK to replace "that Damned Beretta" was identified as Boothroyd. In subsequent movies the more familliar "Q" character appeared.

Thread Drift..Sorry.

I have a great Biography of Fleming...just don't have it with me now. I believe that you are correct about the Boothroyd in the James Bond book "armorer" being based on the real Boothroyd. I seem to remember that Boothroyd, who was a real expert on firearms, was an admirer of the first Bond books, but was appalled that Fleming had Bond armed with a .25 automatic. He contacted Fleming and the two corresponded and may have met in person. Fleming was so impressed by Boothroyd, that he incorporated him into... and this is where I think you may be wrong... I believe the sixth Bond book, which was Dr. No, if I remember correctly. The scene is then fairly accurately incorporated into the movie Dr. No. Boothroyd, in the book issues both the famous Walther PPK, but the Smith and Wesson Centennial AirWeight, .38 S&W Special. It was only used in this one movie, and was lost on Crab Key, never to appear again. I think the book came out about 1958.

Here is Bond getting his Walther in Dr. No:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU98uP7pXA8[/ame]

And here's the real Boothroyd in a cool video:

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VuO34MDezzU&ebc=ANyPxKqBYhblrQLw33gadpvouqEGfpYRfpPuvDTrSgTZ46EEKYtLBDlPdCXmIBFqx2M1SWbmIOPiW1MHZYjRr0frAyXZ2JDWxA[/ame]

I echo the previous posters apologies to the OP for thread drift.

 

[dabney]

Some minor points...

Snipped!
"Finally, I really, really wish that anyone interested in this subject or in handguns in general, would buy Geoffrey Boothroyd's, "The Handgun", Crown Publishers, about 1970. It'll probably be the best investment that you ever make in a book on handgun history. Elmer Keith's, "Sixguns", revised 1961 edition, should be your second gun book, before you buy specialized books on S&W's."

From me.
Mr Boothroyd (if I'm not mistaken) was an advisor to Ian Flemming for firearms knowledge. In "From Russia With Love" the armorer who provided the Walther PPK to replace "that Damned Beretta" was identified as Boothroyd. In subsequent movies the more familliar "Q" character appeared.

Thread Drift..Sorry.

Andrew, it sounds like the Boothroyd book, from your persuasive post, is a book I need terribly. I assume it covers the Enfield/Webley .380 of these posts here, as well as the earlier models. A preliminary check of ebay seems to have turned up a few. Thanks so much for your info on this book.

David

 

[les.b]

David,

I don't know if you had time yet, but the second video I posted above has an interview and demonstration by the real Geoffrey Boothroyd, author of the book you are inquiring about, and introduced by Sean Connery, who most guys our age identify as James Bond. I think you'll like it, it was made way back when...

Regards,

Les

 

[M1A]

BTW "The Handgun" is available at Amazon & the library.

 

[Rock185]

I think there is a certain nostalgia attached to all the Webley and Enfield variations. I know there is for me,especially the Webleys. About 20 or so years ago I got to shoot a good friend's 1918 .455 Webley MK VI. It was cut for 45 ACP and he used light reloads with lead bullets. My old and dear friend died last year and I had the opportunity to purchase his old Webley from the estate. I have loaded some light ACP and Auto Rim ammunition for the old gun using lead bullets. Shoots as well as it ever did.

 

[Texas Star]

Andrew-

You missed the book mentioning the PPK's arrival. It was in, "Dr. No", which appeared in 1958, and was the first 007 book I read.

It was in, "From Russia, With Love" that Bond's Beretta .25 with silencer in place, hung up on his holster or waistband and let Col. Rosa Klebb, KGB agent, kick him with the concealed blade in her shoe. The blade was poisoned with fugu venom, from a blowfish, and Bond nearly died. He was saved by his French colleague, Rene Mathis.

I urge everyone to hit the link that Geoff provided and watch that BBC film featuring the real Geoffrey Boothroyd. But the film does NOT show the right Beretta in .25. It shows a M-1934 or 35 .32 or .380. That was also the case in the movie version of, "Dr. No." I guess the prop dept. didn't know Berettas well, or one in .25 was hard to find in the gun-phobic UK. I doubt if Sean Connery knows handguns very well at all.

BTW, "Fleming" is spelled that way, with just one "M".

Surely, you can locate copies of both Bond books mentioned and see where the gun issue was discussed.

Also, see the Mar. 19, 1962 issue of, "Sports Ill." for an article on the Bond guns, by the real Boothroyd. I may have the date off a little. Check all March and April issues of that year. That magazine is basically anti-gun, but evidently the Bond phenomenon surpassed that bias.

Boothroyd also discussed Bond guns in the US title, "Guns", but I don't recall the issue.

In the film link above, note how many personal guns Boothroyd owned. Until the recent (1997) law, many Britons owned quite a few guns. "Life" featured Ian Fleming and his books in the early 1960's, and the pictures showed Fleming with a couple of his own. Two more were seen in author photos on his books.

BTW, I have a letter from the real Boothroyd. It's on stationery from the set of, "Dr. No." I'm glad that I saved it. I was a Bond fan even in my teens and was delighted to see the first Bond film. But had no idea then what a massive success that franchise would become.

 

[dabney]

Mr. Les;
Thanks so much for those two video links to an "icon" like James Bond. The Boothroyd video was especially interesting.

Andrew, I ordered the Boothroyd book off ebay. I look forward to its arrival. Thanks again sir!,

These British firearms we are discussing are from a by-gone era that, sadly for me, has been placed into the pages of history. Their memories are made manifest within our Enfield/Webley relics from the past, that still operate just fine. Hardy, stout British craftsmanship. Thanks all for the wonderful posts.

David

 

[dabney]

A world traveler is the Enfield No. 2

In studying the .380 Enfield Revolver over a period of time, it would seem that the Enfield/Webley .380-200 Revolvers has traveled to some very far reaches of the world in serving the Queen's interests. I remember seeing photos of the Enfield in the black leather holsters of the Royal Hong Kong Police in early post war times. On a Fox News report a few years ago I saw an Iraqi citizen parading around the streets of a major city there. He was shooting an Enfield Revolver in the air, celebrating some kind of calamity there. Normally I don't give notice to Iraqi anything, but that Enfield caught my eye. On a lighter/better note, I recently viewed the 1965 movie, "Flight of the Phoenix", starring Jimmy Stewart. An Enfield No. 2 MK I* played a small part in it. The recent 2005 remake of "Flight of the Phoenix" has a Webley MK IV .380 starring in it. I enjoyed both movies but much prefer the older because of Stewart. Quaid is okay, but not a Jimmy Stewart. Great movies none-the-less and good to watch on Saturday afternoons, like today. Take care my friends. Your posts are awesome to the subject matter!

David

 

[Texas Star]

Dabney-

That suggestion to buy Boothroyd's, The Handgun came from me. I don't think Andrew has ever seen a copy. He was quoting from one of my posts. I've been preaching here about that book and Keith's, Sixguns for years. I'm always glad when someone orders a copy. I think it's out of print, but has never been widely publicized in the USA and prices are not high. It's about the size of many phone books, so don't drop it on your toes! I think you'll be astounded at the range of content and the excellence of that coverage.

You can see an Enfield .38 in, The Purple Plain with Gregory Peck and in ,The Guns of Navarone, carried by David Niven. Amusingly, Niven played a corporal. In real life, the actor became a Lt. Col. or a full Colonel; I forget which. Before he became an actor, he was a British officer and was recalled to duty for WWII. In his autobiography he referred to his revolver as a Webley. Probably a MK VI, as he owned it before the war. Issue of the then-new Enfield seems to have begun by 1931, perhaps earlier. It was adopted in 1927, but replacement was gradual and not all those equipped with revolvers had the .38 by 1939. BTW, Anthony Quinn also had an Enfield .38 in that film, holding it ready behind a newspaper as he met a guest who might be a German agent. The guns in the film are not the same as in the book, which I think was written by Alistair MacLean. Oddly, the book mentioned just one Colt. It would have been a .45 auto, but British special ops personnel usually carried that arm, and not just one per party. If you see, The Guns of Navarone, look for the Mauser .32 in the hand of one German officer. Because his hand hides the handle, I can't say if it was the M-1914 or the later M-1934. The latter has a more curved rear part of the handle.

This film is on DVD and is one of the very best of all WWII movies. I recall seeing it in the theater when it was released. Yeah, I was interested in this stuff at an early age.

I've seen photos of tank crews with the new .38's in the mid 1930's and in the film, Drums, you can also see the Pattern 37 webbing holsters. Pretty odd, as that movie appeared that year, I think, and was set in India. Maybe there was already a very similar holster in use?

I have long been interested in the British military in the 20th Century, when they still held much of their wide Empire. I look for mentions of both rifles and handguns in books, and for photos in magazines like, Life and National Geographic. Those are, of course, also very useful for those of you interested in the S&W Victory Model .38's.

A cover of Newsweek (?) showed the late King Hussein of Jordan wearing an S&W M-19 in an open-top webbing holster of the sort used by tankers for the Enfield .38. The color of the Goncalo alves stocks was pretty... well, pretty! The year was roughly 1970.

If you can find books like, Man-Hunt in Kenya, you'll learn about the early Patchett (later Sterling) SMG's and Browning Hi-Powers used in the battle to contain Mau-Mau terrorists. The paperback I have shows detailed drawings of those. The author was Inspector Ian Henderson, GM. He received the George Medal for his gallantry in working with converted Mau-Mau gang members and turning them against other terrorists. His forces captured the infamous Dedan Kimathi, a murderer many times over, often of his fellow terrorists if he felt they were disloyal.

Sometimes, the make of revolver isn't mentioned, as with, The Brazen Chariots by Major Robert Crisp, DSO, MC, etc. Crisp was a South African cricket star before WWII, in which he served in the Royal Tank Regiment in North Africa and later in Europe, after a lengthy convalescence following severe wounds. It was Crisp who named the US M-3 Stuart tank as the Honey in Commonwealth service. He took one for a test drive and was asked his opinion. "It's a honey!" he exclaimed, and the name stuck. But he just referred to his revolver as a .38. No brand name or model.

On the other hand, Lt. Ian MacHorton named his Colt .38, which he carried with a Thompson SMG in Burma. Look for his, "The Hundred Days of Lt. MacHorton" to read about his ordeal as he escaped the Japanese to return to India.

 

[dabney]

Texas, my apologies sir. I thank "you" very much sir! Is the Enfield/Webley .380's covered with detail in the Boothroyd book?

David

 

[dabney]

The photos show a 1945 production Enfield. This particular model was purchased at a gun show last year for 300-dollars. The only reason I mentioned the price was to show the value climb of good condition Enfields. The first one I purchased (1980's) was under 100-dollars. Also interesting is the black paint , used at RSAF, for finish purposes. This Enfield has pristine grips and the appearance of lightly used (shot), if at all. My camera doesn't do justice to this British firearm. I do love the Enfield! I own one Brit canvas flap holster with the belt. These are affordable for me. The Enfield served many years after the war, a testament to their rugged durability. It would not surprise me to find out that a few may still be serving in former colonial interests of the Queen. The Enfield resonates with an exotic background in Middle Eastern quarters. The post war nights of British Officers finding the right bar, with the right belly dancer, and still in uniform with "trusty" Enfield in holster on hip. Didn't wanna be unarmed, surrounded by hostile Arabs, ungrateful at being a British colony. The Enfield did much and saw much! Thanks again Texas, Les, and other Enfield friends here!

David