A Couple of Old School 1911 Questions

Dump1567

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Since there's a lot of guys that have "been around" on this site, I figured I would ask these questions here.

Prior to the popularity of ambi-safeties, what condition did a lefty carry a 1911 in?

Why didn't a lot of the old school 20th Century shooters/Hunters/gun writers, prefer the 1911? Seems most preferred wheel guns (other than Cooper). Even Taffin is a big wheel gun fan.

I'm kind of on a classic 1911 kick right now.
Thanks.
 
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Same with my Marines...

Almost, anyway.

Lefties had to make due with righty guns.
 
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Since the army didn't teach cocked-and-locked, why would that matter?

The lefties that I know carried it cocked-and-locked, and knocked the safety off with the index finger on the draw, or did a reach-around with the left thumb.

Seems slow, buy you can get pretty quick, with practice.
 
I've seen leftys learn to manipulate the thumb safety by wrapping the thumb over the left side of the frame. Of course they would have to shift it back to the right side before firing. I've also seen them use a two handed hold and work the safety with the right thumb.
Some simply carried the gun cocked and unlocked. relying solely on the grip safety.
Most leftys opperate the mag release with their trigger finger.

As far as the old school guys (I'm just guessing here) many were outdoorsmen and I believe they just prefered the cartridges used in wheelguns. Many of the old LEOs were big fans of the .357.
 
All the above and more is true.
All reasons why I have never been comfortable with the 1911.
Add to that the brass heading for my eyeball, I am reaching for a revolver!

But if I carried one- it would be hammer down.
 
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My old partner carried a 1911 before ambi safeties became common. He carried it cocked and locked and learned to swipe the safety off with his left thumb and then bring his thumb back around to the right side on the way up. I helped him fit an ambi safety when they first became available (the Colt type that involved changing out the hammer pin). Some of the old timer lefties carried theirs with the hammer all the way down. Every once in a while, we would run into an old timer who carried theirs on half-cock. Some of them would listen when we explained that it was safer to leave the hammer all the way down and some would not. Our boss dropped his Combat Commander onto the floor board of his Piper Comanche and it shot a hole in his instrument panel. Then he finally listened to us when we explained to him to either carry it cocked and locked or hammer down but not on half-cock. There were 1911 ambi safeties custom made by gunsmiths way back. Captain M. T "Lone Wolf" Gonzaullas and Colonel Homer Garrison had ambidextrous safeties on 1911s that they carried in double rigs, one in a right hand holster and one in a left hand holster. Like 11e40 said, Army guys had to shoot right hand, not wrong hand.
 
Since there's a lot of guys that have "been around" on this site, I figured I would ask these questions here.

Why didn't a lot of the old school 20th Century shooters/Hunters/gun writers, prefer the 1911?

From what I've read over the years, it seems the older gun writers (Keith, Skelton, Askins, Nonte, Jordan, etc., etc.) and law enforcement guys liked the revolver because of its dependability. You get a misfire with a revolver, you just pull the trigger again. With a semi, you have to take often valuable time to clear it before you can chamber another round.

Also, old single-action shooters said the grips and grip frame shape made the revolver a more natural pointing gun. They liked that plow handle shape of the old single-actions. Ditto for the Bisley.
 
Many of the older gun writers were outdoorsmen and had hunted big
game and worked around mean cattle and horses and the overhyped
.45 acp in the 1911 could not begin to match the power of the
handloaded revolver.
 
My Dad was left handed and a Police officer from 1938-1977.

The only auto he shot was a early Smith Model 41 on the Dept. Pistol Team.

His main duty gun from 1939 until the mid-60s was a 6" .357 magnum Colt New Service. Then as a Lt and Capt. he carried his old off-duty/back up guns a 1946 4" M&P and a 50s Colt Detective Special....until he retired.

His only "new gun" was in the late 80s; a early S&W640 he had me get him after he saw mine

While they got a couple of new calibers .357, .44 mag and .38 super .....there were not a lot of "new guns" (in this country) from about 1900 until the 1980 "Wonder nines".

Today new guns, styles are coming out every couple of years....it seems like Police Depts. are getting new and different style guns every few years.

Revolvers, to Beretta 92s and Smith 59s to Sig 228/9s then on to Glocks and M&Ps.

.38s to .357s to 9mm to .40s , to .357Sigs back to .45 and 9mms..

The "Old Timers" had S&W and Colt revolvers and Colt .45 and a few .25 and .32 autos. They didn't change their style of firearm like a lot do today.......

LOL some of us get grief; I know I do for carrying 3rd gen S&W 3913s and 6906s when I could have a fantastic plastic new Glock or M&P.
 
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I've learned and adapted to working around most right handed firearms but the 1911 is the one gun I insist on having an ambi safety. As a SD gun there are way to many variables to just swipe the safety in the holster or use the 2 arm approach or shifting my grip to get my thumb around the hammer and beaver tail. Having the safety on the proper side for me means a fast, smooth and instant draw with one had or two.

Bolt action rifles I learned to manipulate and without a scope I'm just as fast as any righty. There are some exceptions (Enfields) but in those cases I can shoulder it on the right.
 
I am left-handed. When I joined the Navy in 1963, I had a hard time qualifying. When I was going through advisor training in 1969 before going to Viet Nam, they sent us through Marine Advanced Infantry training at Camp Pendleton. I had a early M-16 without a shell deflector. A stream of shell casings would hit my forehead if I didn't pull my helmet low over my eyes and I was having a hard time qualifying. A Marine instructor discovered I am right eye dominant. I switched to shooting right-handed and qualified expert marksman. I have carried handguns and long guns right-handed ever since. I can shoot a handgun with either hand as long as I keep both eyes open.
 
I AM right handed and I still prefer a 1911A1 with the ambi safety for a fighting hand gun.
Things can get unexpectedly ugly in a gun fight [military or civilian] having the option of left or right hand firing is one of the many things you can do to help sway the odds in your favor. JM not so HO. Nick
 
The installation of an ambidextrous safety is the solution to your problem. Then carry the 1911 the way it was designed; cocked and locked. One of the best fighting handguns ever designed and manufactured. If you don't think the .45acp is enough cartridge, get it in 10mm. ............. Big Cholla
 
Cooper demonstrated taking off the safety with the index finger, as one poster mentioned above. I recall him saying you can take off the safety "perhaps not as fast, but just as well" using that method.

That said, Cooper always said the 1911 only needed (1) sights YOU can see; (2) a trigger YOU can manage; and, (3) a dehorning job.

Additional work beyond the three listed items was on an "as needed" basis. The "as needed" items included reliability work, such as throating the barrel, polishing the ramp, extractor tuning, pinning the grip safety or installing one with a bump in case the high thumb on top of the safety grip resulted in unreliable operation of the grip safety. Another "as needed" item was the ambi-safety, which could be used by either a lefty or by someone who merely wanted to be able to operate the safety from both sides of the pistol.

As to the question of why many of the "old timers" preferred revolvers, I think most believed revolvers were "more reliable" for LE work and the ordinary citizen, neither of which were likely to wade through a river or drop the revolver in a mud hole under usual circumstances. In addition, most people do not realize now just how difficult it was to get a 1911 to feed ammo other than ball, as used by the military. Until gun companies began throating/polishing, etc., as part of ordinary assembly, the first thing a 1911 owner had to do, should he wish to use other than ball ammo, is send his brand new gun to a gunsmith for work. The S&W and Colt revolvers could be used with more effective semi-wadcutter or hollow point ammo straight out of the box.

As to how the 1911 was designed to be carried, early military manuals say that it should be carried in what we now call Condition 1 (cocked and locked) when unexpected quick fire was required. Since, in the case of LE or citizen carry, unexpected quick action is the norm, the condition of the 1911 should be cocked and locked.

If the 1911 is in spec (and it is pretty hard to find one out of spec as far as this issue goes), cocked and locked is actually quite safe, arguably safer than the condition of the modern striker fired pistols.

In no particular order, the 1911 has the grip safety, the thumb safety lock, the disconnector, the half-cock notch in case of sear engagement failure (newer pistols have the "safety shelf," which arrests the hammer closer to the frame since half-cock notch failure can result in a discharge as enough inertia is generated even from the half-cock position). Finally, the one safety feature almost no one ever mentions is the additional function of the very substantial stud on the back of the thumb safety.

This final feature can be clearly seen if the grip safety is removed. This stud arrests the hammer in the event of sear engagement failure without the trigger being pulled if the safety is activated.

Why did John M. Browning include this?

Recall that the function of the thumb safety is to put pressure on the sear so that it cannot be jarred out of engagement with the corresponding notch on the hammer. Thus, in theory, if sear engagement fails, the hammer could still fall, resulting in an unintended discharge, assuming half-cock was also not functioning. The grip safety would not prevent this as it interacts with the trigger bow, not the hammer.

Knowing this, JMB included in the design that the same stud, one side of which is fitted to the sear, also acts to arrest the hammer itself in the event of failure of the sear engagement.

Thus, when you analyze the way it works, in the event of sear engagement failure (no pull of the trigger), the hammer is arrested from movement by the substantial stud on the back of the thumb safety. Should that fail, the half-cock notch (or safety shelf) will arrest hammer fall, and should that fail, the Series 80 firing pin safety will arrest the firing pin should it be struck by a falling hammer where the trigger was not pulled.

Thus, the 1911 is arguably safer than the modern day striker fired polymer pistols, especially those that are either partially cocked (Glock) or fully cocked (M&P and Springfield, to name two).

In addition, although Glock brags that only a 3/32 inch punch is needed to completely disassemble the pistol, remember, JMB designed the 1911 to be completely disassembled, not just field stripped, without any external tools of any kind. Although beyond the scope of this post, there are plenty of articles on how complete disassembly of the 1911 can be done without any extra tools not already on the pistol.

One such article, called "The 1911 Pistol is its Own Toolbox" is here:

The 1911 Pistol is its own toolbox
 

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