As we discussed in the past my kit gun has the serial number on the butt even though the frame is rebated. Going over the database someone else wrote of the same anomaly on their kit gun . Our serial numbers are only twenty guns apart. If my frame was altered i am pretty confident the factory did it before shipment.
A Crash Course in Prewar Kit Guns (Two more variants added: see post no. 29)
- Thread starter DCWilson
- Start date
As we discussed in the past my kit gun has the serial number on the butt even though the frame is rebated. Going over the database someone else wrote of the same anomaly on their kit gun . Our serial numbers are only twenty guns apart. If my frame was altered i am pretty confident the factory did it before shipment.
OP
I agree about your gun. It is known that the factory would reconfigure guns that were already in inventory if they had an order for a particular variety that was not at that instant available in the vault. Recently I acquired an I-frame .32 Long Target Revolver that shipped in 1905. The gun letters as a target revolver, but I was informed that the floor foreman's notes, which happen to be preserved for this era and which record varieties of particular models and their finishes, show that guns in the serial number range that included this one were built as .32 Hand Ejectors with service sights. It seems an inescapable conclusion that a finished fixed-sight gun was sent to the service department for conversion to a target revolver and was then shipped as such in response to an immediate need.
David,
Thank you for a marvelous and informative presentation. This is one I'll come back to many times as questions arise. Your numbers confirm why I've never seen one in person.
Jerry
Thank you for a marvelous and informative presentation. This is one I'll come back to many times as questions arise. Your numbers confirm why I've never seen one in person.
Jerry
r3captain
Member
If this thread were a sporting event, it would be an ESPN instant classic!
BUFF
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
I have a .38-44 Heavy Duty with a 5 inch barrel, blue finish, s/n 42983 with what Roy Jinks described as a "USRA" front sight blade similar to the one shown on your Kit Gun, David.
Very nice collection you have put together with a great deal of information. Thank you, David, I have been enlightened.
Very nice collection you have put together with a great deal of information. Thank you, David, I have been enlightened.
Excellent write up and outstanding collection.
Thank you for taking the time to put it all together and share your knowledge.
Thank you for taking the time to put it all together and share your knowledge.
Nimrod44
Member
Very informative and well written David. We have discussed mine in the past as being shipped in Jan. 1941. I didn't realize it was the only one known to have shipped in 1941. Serial # is 533480 stamped on the butt with extension stocks.
Thanks again for the information.
Doug
Thanks again for the information.
Doug
OP
Doug, I had forgotten. That makes two 1941 guns then, because the one I was thinking about (534xxx -- can't remember the last three digits at the instant) was shipped to an individual in Huntington Beach CA that year. I suspect there were some others as well, but we'll need to find them before we can date them.
OP
Two more examples with front sight variants
When I started this thread last spring, I thought I had probably reached the natural limit of my prewar Kit Gun addiction and that I wouldn't be acquiring any more. But thinking I was through with Kit Guns didn't mean that Kit Guns were through with me. In recent months I came across two more specimens that were just different enough to catch my attention, so they came to live in my safe too.
This is 531108, which shipped in November 1938. The stocks are for a 1920s-era Regulation Police (no medallions), and I am astonished that they even approximately fit on the gun because the frame was intended to carry round butt stocks: it is an unrebated frame and has the serial number on the bottom. The frame was not filed to accept the internal shape of the wood, and the wood does not appear to have been whittled to allow the stocks to fit an unrebated frame. But if you wallow out the top of the grip pin holes to allow the stocks to ride just a little low on the frame, you can make them take a fairly natural position. Still, this inauthentic appearance doesn't appeal to me, and I think I will scare up a set of medallion round butt or medallion extension stocks to replace these. And somewhere in the safe I have a 1920s RP that could use these stocks (which are unnumbered), so everything will work out.
The wrong stocks that almost fit are not what makes this gun interesting. This gun has a Call gold bead front sight and is the only prewar Kit Gun I have personally observed with such a sight, though I have a cryptic note to myself that may indicate another one has been reported. Already in my collection was a Kit Gun with a Call brilliant (stainless) bead in the front sight. I have read of a Kit Gun with a Call ivory front sight, but have not seen one. I have never seen or read of a Kit Gun with a McGivern gold bead front sight. (That's the variety with domed bead that extends from the vertical face of what would be called a patridge sight if it had no bead in it at all.) Nonetheless, I bet a McGivern bead KG exists somewhere.
Despite the bead in the front blade, the rear sight notch has a square notch rather than a U-notch. The front blade may be a replacement. A letter will be required to decide that issue.
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/...d-bd79-4e33-a637-092ed3102ea3_zps2a9bb163.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/...6-0554-42dc-a866-030ff20ed4bb_zpsc031e0ca.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/...f-b4cf-4506-9837-51e0f8b8c956_zps7c57ca0a.jpg
The other KG is 532245, which probably shipped in late 1938 or early 1939. I don't yet have a date, or misplaced it if I learned it. This gun has a Marble front sight from which the bead is missing. I think of it as a Marble "beadless" blade. The rear sight is fitted with a U-notch leaf, which makes more sense to me as a companion to front blades with beads.
This gun is also a round butt specimen with the serial number on the bottom of the grip frame. The stocks number to the gun.
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/...2-c3ae-43ed-92cd-632c23c5a1e0_zps8f65d2a8.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/...d-30cd-488a-b713-e9de3f3ce301_zps88c31b47.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/...e-abec-4815-b263-52c27c1131a0_zpsdd3ebb7c.jpg
One final note. In late 1936 an order came down from on high to enlarge the company trademark on new production and relocate it to the sideplate. Kit guns whose frames were made before early 1937 have the small logo on the left. Kit guns whose frames were made after that should have the large logo on the sideplate.
Of these two guns, 531108 has both a small logo and a large logo. I have seen that on other revolvers assembled during a period of trademark relocation, but not on any other Kit Gun in my collection. The other KG here, 532245, though carrying a higher serial number and presumably assembled and shipped no earlier than 1938, actually has the smaller logo on the left side. Looks like this gun was built on an older frame that had been in storage for some time before it was resurrected and built out as a Kit Gun. It would be interesting to know the highest serial number to be found on a prewar Kit Gun that sports a small logo on the left side and none on the sideplate, as well as the lowest serial number found on a Kit Gun with the larger sideplate logo.
When I started this thread last spring, I thought I had probably reached the natural limit of my prewar Kit Gun addiction and that I wouldn't be acquiring any more. But thinking I was through with Kit Guns didn't mean that Kit Guns were through with me. In recent months I came across two more specimens that were just different enough to catch my attention, so they came to live in my safe too.
This is 531108, which shipped in November 1938. The stocks are for a 1920s-era Regulation Police (no medallions), and I am astonished that they even approximately fit on the gun because the frame was intended to carry round butt stocks: it is an unrebated frame and has the serial number on the bottom. The frame was not filed to accept the internal shape of the wood, and the wood does not appear to have been whittled to allow the stocks to fit an unrebated frame. But if you wallow out the top of the grip pin holes to allow the stocks to ride just a little low on the frame, you can make them take a fairly natural position. Still, this inauthentic appearance doesn't appeal to me, and I think I will scare up a set of medallion round butt or medallion extension stocks to replace these. And somewhere in the safe I have a 1920s RP that could use these stocks (which are unnumbered), so everything will work out.
The wrong stocks that almost fit are not what makes this gun interesting. This gun has a Call gold bead front sight and is the only prewar Kit Gun I have personally observed with such a sight, though I have a cryptic note to myself that may indicate another one has been reported. Already in my collection was a Kit Gun with a Call brilliant (stainless) bead in the front sight. I have read of a Kit Gun with a Call ivory front sight, but have not seen one. I have never seen or read of a Kit Gun with a McGivern gold bead front sight. (That's the variety with domed bead that extends from the vertical face of what would be called a patridge sight if it had no bead in it at all.) Nonetheless, I bet a McGivern bead KG exists somewhere.
Despite the bead in the front blade, the rear sight notch has a square notch rather than a U-notch. The front blade may be a replacement. A letter will be required to decide that issue.
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/...d-bd79-4e33-a637-092ed3102ea3_zps2a9bb163.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/...6-0554-42dc-a866-030ff20ed4bb_zpsc031e0ca.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/...f-b4cf-4506-9837-51e0f8b8c956_zps7c57ca0a.jpg
The other KG is 532245, which probably shipped in late 1938 or early 1939. I don't yet have a date, or misplaced it if I learned it. This gun has a Marble front sight from which the bead is missing. I think of it as a Marble "beadless" blade. The rear sight is fitted with a U-notch leaf, which makes more sense to me as a companion to front blades with beads.
This gun is also a round butt specimen with the serial number on the bottom of the grip frame. The stocks number to the gun.
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/...2-c3ae-43ed-92cd-632c23c5a1e0_zps8f65d2a8.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/...d-30cd-488a-b713-e9de3f3ce301_zps88c31b47.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/...e-abec-4815-b263-52c27c1131a0_zpsdd3ebb7c.jpg
One final note. In late 1936 an order came down from on high to enlarge the company trademark on new production and relocate it to the sideplate. Kit guns whose frames were made before early 1937 have the small logo on the left. Kit guns whose frames were made after that should have the large logo on the sideplate.
Of these two guns, 531108 has both a small logo and a large logo. I have seen that on other revolvers assembled during a period of trademark relocation, but not on any other Kit Gun in my collection. The other KG here, 532245, though carrying a higher serial number and presumably assembled and shipped no earlier than 1938, actually has the smaller logo on the left side. Looks like this gun was built on an older frame that had been in storage for some time before it was resurrected and built out as a Kit Gun. It would be interesting to know the highest serial number to be found on a prewar Kit Gun that sports a small logo on the left side and none on the sideplate, as well as the lowest serial number found on a Kit Gun with the larger sideplate logo.
Gorgeous David. Two great finds. That's the only double logo Kit Gun I've seen and the 1st Marble sight I've seen on an S&W. I must say it's a superb fit and look. You've probably already considered a replacement bead from a current Marble's sight blade.
These kit guns may have been intended to put a rabbit in the pot, but David seems to be able to pull rabbits out of his hat.
Now they all need to come out of the safe for a new group photo.
Now they all need to come out of the safe for a new group photo.
This dissertation needs to be combined into an "Expert Commentary".
Modified
Member
Excellent post. I'd be curious what your take on this gun is. Does it qualify as a prewar Kit Gun?
I've lusted after a pre-war kit gun for some time now, so when this one popped up my obsession with King sighted guns overrode any hesitation I had regarding the S/N being outside of the range you talk about here. I just assume I am buying something that was modified later to it's current state, and I can defray the cost of this one by offloading my pre-34 to pay for it.
Out of curiosity, is this a gun anyone else was watching?
OP
I wasn't watching it but wish I had been because it is an interesting example of the Virtual Kit Gun.
If the gun was originally shipped about the time the frame was numbered, it dates to 1926. Only .22/32s with six inch barrels were being manufactured at that time, and they didn't have recessed cylinders. This looks to me like a mid-'20s I-frame that was rebuilt as a Kit Gun in the postwar era, maybe late '40s/early '50s. Note the round corners to the checking field on the grips and the four-line address, which are not prewar features, but which would have been expected at some stages of factory refinishing. It would be interesting to see what rework date might lie under the wood on the left side of the grip frame.
I would not have expected to find a serial number stamped on the butt of a .22/32 Heavy Frame Target in any year, though after 1936 the round butt Kit Guns would have had the serial numbers there. Earlier guns with six-inch barrels would ordinarily have had serial numbers on the forestrap as the basic two-screw target stocks would have covered the serial number in the lower location.
King red post front sight, King white-outline square notch rear sight blade: nice.
This is a very interesting gun that was carefully converted to a desired more modern configuration by an owner who knew what he wanted. As everybody knows, true prewar Kit Guns can get expensive. This one gives the prewar KG experience at a good price. It's not completely original, but I think it is easily worth what it sold for.
Modified
Member
Thank you very much for the response, that really does please me as this is exactly the kind of gun I am pursuing for my collection. It's nice to know that I am on the right track.
For some reason I find I like the guns that have been very finely re-worked more then guns that are all original, I think it's just that little bit of added history that does it for me. In this case it was the King front sight and rear blade that pushed me over the edge to buy it.
The oddity that is the S/N on the butt... I knew something was up with that, but I couldn't put my finger on what was bothering me. I chalked it up to the fact that it wasn't centered. Of course the S/N should be on the front of the frame. That's what I love about getting into these old guns, every new one I buy teaches me something.
When the gun arrives I'll get the stocks off and get detailed photographs, hopefully that will clarify the history of the gun a bit.
In a way I'm really pleased that this gun was rebuilt, it means that a good set of Sandersons like you have won't really be anachronistic
For some reason I find I like the guns that have been very finely re-worked more then guns that are all original, I think it's just that little bit of added history that does it for me. In this case it was the King front sight and rear blade that pushed me over the edge to buy it.
The oddity that is the S/N on the butt... I knew something was up with that, but I couldn't put my finger on what was bothering me. I chalked it up to the fact that it wasn't centered. Of course the S/N should be on the front of the frame. That's what I love about getting into these old guns, every new one I buy teaches me something.
When the gun arrives I'll get the stocks off and get detailed photographs, hopefully that will clarify the history of the gun a bit.
In a way I'm really pleased that this gun was rebuilt, it means that a good set of Sandersons like you have won't really be anachronistic
OP
Congratulations on the score. I'd be tempted to letter this one just find out what it was when it left Springfield. And when the SWHF data base reaches into the 1950s you may be able to track the rebuild order.
Green Frog
Member
You guys are going to have to quit dredging up these threads with neat I-frames! I had rationally decided that I had enough already, but now I'm starting to get the itch again. Help me, I feel myself weakening!!
Froggie
Froggie
Modified
Member
No, you must give into your base urge to acquire I-Frames for it is right and good.
Sixgun,
That is indeed a special virtual Kit Gun! Very desirable in my opinion as well and to think, you were the only bidder and won it at that price. I too agree it was a factory re-work/refinish from the late '40s early '50s. Besides the early post war 'Service' (round top) stocks, the satin blue finish dates it to that time period. The factory clearly used a 1930s old stock Kit Gun barrel and 'barrel' style extractor knob.
As David wrote, it started life as a 22/32 Heavy Frame Target and the serial # dates it to ~1926. It must have come originally with the two screw extension target stocks because the backstrap is not rebated for the Regulation Police sq butt style stocks which were used as the standard stocks for approximately the 1st half of the 1920s.
I can only speculate that the round butt stocks of the time of the rework were substituted because the original stocks were too worn to be reused on a nicely refinished gun or the owner specifically wanted that Kit Gun option. And the factory followed protocol for round butt stocks by removing the serial # from the front grip strap and re-stamped it on the butt.
I acquired this HFT for my son of that era #441725 for $750 (also w/non-rebated grip frame) that was factory refinished and dated 1953 with the same satin blue but only one custom feature of the period as shown:
This one #483827 was a $225 HFT with a bulged barrel that we transplanted a used original 4" Kit Gun barrel to and retained the mushroom knob by modifying the barrel notch. It also came with original target stocks and non-rebated round butt grip frame (shown with the Roper stocks from the above gun):
I also like these interesting, less expensive and very shootable variations. I would gladly pay the price for your factory re-worked gun than an original HFT.
P.S. I noticed a rub mark on the rear of the barrel notch in the auction photos where there's a slight interference fit with the extractor knob.
That is indeed a special virtual Kit Gun! Very desirable in my opinion as well and to think, you were the only bidder and won it at that price. I too agree it was a factory re-work/refinish from the late '40s early '50s. Besides the early post war 'Service' (round top) stocks, the satin blue finish dates it to that time period. The factory clearly used a 1930s old stock Kit Gun barrel and 'barrel' style extractor knob.
As David wrote, it started life as a 22/32 Heavy Frame Target and the serial # dates it to ~1926. It must have come originally with the two screw extension target stocks because the backstrap is not rebated for the Regulation Police sq butt style stocks which were used as the standard stocks for approximately the 1st half of the 1920s.
I can only speculate that the round butt stocks of the time of the rework were substituted because the original stocks were too worn to be reused on a nicely refinished gun or the owner specifically wanted that Kit Gun option. And the factory followed protocol for round butt stocks by removing the serial # from the front grip strap and re-stamped it on the butt.
I acquired this HFT for my son of that era #441725 for $750 (also w/non-rebated grip frame) that was factory refinished and dated 1953 with the same satin blue but only one custom feature of the period as shown:
This one #483827 was a $225 HFT with a bulged barrel that we transplanted a used original 4" Kit Gun barrel to and retained the mushroom knob by modifying the barrel notch. It also came with original target stocks and non-rebated round butt grip frame (shown with the Roper stocks from the above gun):
I also like these interesting, less expensive and very shootable variations. I would gladly pay the price for your factory re-worked gun than an original HFT.
P.S. I noticed a rub mark on the rear of the barrel notch in the auction photos where there's a slight interference fit with the extractor knob.
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Froggie, my friend, I'm only too happy to help. I'll notify you immediately of any and all good buys I come across from now on.
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