A DISCOVERY ABOUT TARGET SPORTS 9MM BRASS

[chief38]

I have been at the Reloading game for over 40 years - but I am new to reloading the 9mm. In the past I could buy it for less than I could reload it so I never bothered - now things have changed!!

Two weeks ago I was at the Range and saw three complete Target Sports (made for them) boxes full of once shot Brass in the garbage pail. I took it home, tumbled it and reloaded it yesterday. The Target Sports Brass was mixed in with pretty much every brand you could imagine (after tumbling) as I do not separate them. After reloading a bunch I could feel a very substantial difference of how much pressure it took to seat and crimp a bullet into the Target Sports cases. After determining that this was very real and not a fluke - I stopped and measured the wall thicknesses of Target's cases and about 5 other brands. The Target Sports ammo had a consistent case wall thickness of 0.015" All the other Brass (Winchester, Federal, Remington, etc ) all had case walls of 0.010 to 0.011. SO..... it seems the Target Sports cases are 50% thicker! WOW!! Therefore the inside diameter is smaller making seating and crimping a bit more difficult as well as scraping the hell out of the Polymer coated bullets! I will see soon how they shoot. The head stamps are marked TSA and they come in a flimsy Target Sports marked box. Since I was not the one that purchased them, I know nothing about their Brass.

 

[rockquarry]

A good reason not to mix brass. Thick and thin walls are apparent on others as well. I tried loading some PPU .38 Special brass a few years ago. Much thicker case walls (at least for that lot) than other cases. I haven't done a side-by-side accuracy test comparison with the PPU mixed with other .38 Special brass, but larger groups when mixing the thick-walled brass with the thin-walled wouldn't be surprising.

 

[ddixie884]

I loaded some .38spl PPU brass a few years ago and posted about it here. It is very reminiscent of the military .38spl brass I used to really like to load. I have bought a lot of PPU .38spl by the case with free shipping from TS. It is nice ammo since they started loading swc at the same price as RNL.........

 

[Scharfschuetzer]

Thick walled cases mean a smaller combustion chamber compared to cases with a more standard case wall. That means they will produce higher pressure than an thinner walled case.

Probably not a big deal in a low pressure and large for caliber 38 Special case, but in the smaller and higher pressure 9mm case, it may produce pressures that you don't want to see when using loading data for Winchester or Remington cases.

Rockquary is correct with his suggestion not to mix brass in this case.

 

[bruce5781]

I have about 850 rounds left of a case of those Target Sports marked 9mm. I don't reload, but they have shot well for me.

 

[rockquarry]

I loaded some .38spl PPU brass a few years ago and posted about it here. It is very reminiscent of the military .38spl brass I used to really like to load. I have bought a lot of PPU .38spl by the case with free shipping from TS. It is nice ammo since they started loading swc at the same price as RNL.........

Use all PPU brass and don't mix it and it will work as well as anything else.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I would think if used with just Plated/copper jacket bullets........

and NOT lead or Coated bullets , that thick wall case, would be just fine.

I also agree on not mixing brass..........
for better fps/accuracy and pressure differences.

 

[Sevens]

Thick walled cases mean a smaller combustion chamber compared to cases with a more standard case wall. That means they will produce higher pressure than an thinner walled case.

I'll quote this in hopes that it gets the attention it deserves.

Understand that there is almost no cartridge across the spectrum that runs as high a pressure in this small a space. And when you reduce that space, you are asking for trouble.

Make sure that the loads you typically run in 9mm aren't already max loads... now stuffed in to a noticeably smaller space.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

It has been quite a while, but...

As I recall the volume of a cylinder is the area within the circumfrence of the circle (pi r squared) times the height...? And 9mm cases are tapered, however...

If they were cylindrical:

Reducing the radius by 0.005" reduces the volume by what approximate percentage, if the SAMMI spec for the outer diameter of a 9mm luger case is 0.394 - 0.010"...?

I'm asking is it statistically relevant, pressure-wise? Any more so than a bullet seated, say 0.005" deeper?

I'm confident the engineers out there have a better answer than I...

Cheers!

 

[chief38]

I've seen slight variances in case wall thicknesses before but NEVEFR 50% thicker! As I shoot them I'll probably toss the TSA cases. All other brands (Federal, Remington, Winchester, Speer, etc.) are all between 0.010" and 0.011" - very close. The TSA is 0.015" That's a huge difference to me!

 

[Revoman]

I wonder what the country of origin is?

 

[chief38]

I wonder what the country of origin is?

While this is STRICTLY a guess, I'm thinking PPU is private labeling TSA for Target Sports. The reason I am guessing this is that it has been reported before that the PPU ammo does exhibit thicker walls than most cartridges. While I have in the past shot PPU (good ammo BTW), I have never reloaded it.

BTW I also noticed that the Primers went in a bit more difficultly than with other Brass - thicker once again. I could be wrong here, but all signs and other reports do lead me to believe it's made by PPU located in Serbia. Again - just a guess.......

 

[raljr1]

I had a similar issue with some 45 acp brass. When bullets were seated, there was a slight bulge at the mouth of the case. These rounds would not chamber in my Remington R1, but worked fine in my old Remington Rand...the case walls were 3 or 4 thousands of an inch thicker.....original factory loads must have used a slightly smaller diameter bullet.

Robert

 

[Univibe]

9mm really is all over the place, much more so than .45 or the revolvers.

 

[gwpercle]

Welcome to the woderful world of reloading 9mm Luger

Fair Warning ... the 9mm Luger is a Stinker !

Inspect every case ... some have reduced volumes , some have a brass ring inside the case , some have smaller than standard flash holes (they damage pins) , some have undersized primer pockets , some are brass plated steel ... I could go on but you get the picture !!!
When dealing with 9mm Luger brass , IEC (Inspect EVERY Case)

I've been a serious reloader for 50 + years , never owned a 9mm Luger untill my Dad gave me his old WWII Walther P38 a few years ago ... that round was so frustrating I almost gave up on it ... it made me say "bad " words and walk away from the bench 3 times ...
I kept fighting with it untill I got all the bugs worked out ...
Rule #1 Inspect every case and try to seperate them into headstamp.
The 9mm is a STINKER to reload and doubly so with cast bullets !!!
Good Luck , Load Safe
Gary

 

[rockquarry]

Welcome to the woderful world of reloading 9mm Luger

Fair Warning ... the 9mm Luger is a Stinker !

Inspect every case ... some have reduced volumes , some have a brass ring inside the case , some have smaller than standard flash holes (they damage pins) , some have undersized primer pockets , some are brass plated steel ... I could go on but you get the picture !!!
When dealing with 9mm Luger brass , IEC (Inspect EVERY Case)

I've been a serious reloader for 50 + years , never owned a 9mm Luger untill my Dad gave me his old WWII Walther P38 a few years ago ... that round was so frustrating I almost gave up on it ... it made me say "bad " words and walk away from the bench 3 times ...
I kept fighting with it untill I got all the bugs worked out ...
Rule #1 Inspect every case and try to seperate them into headstamp.
The 9mm is a STINKER to reload and doubly so with cast bullets !!!
Good Luck , Load Safe
Gary

I have a very good and accurate cast 9mm load now that I've been using about ten years. However, I tried many, many different cast bullet designs, sizing diameters, and alloys in years past. Some worked well and many were poor. I can see why people give up on the 9mm with cast bullets. Mixing brass can only aggravate the problem.

I use Winchester brass exclusively, some of it thirty years old and I have no idea how many times it's been loaded. It's fairly thin brass and won't distort an oversized (.358") bullet. Best bullet has been an obsolete Lyman design, #358212, a 150 grain plain base round nose seated to maximum magazine length. I use a wheelweight alloy and Bullseye powder. Leading is not a problem and cartridges loaded with this bullet feed with 100% reliability in a Beretta, Sig, and a Walther P4.

 

[mtgianni]

It has been quite a while, but...

As I recall the volume of a cylinder is the area within the circumfrence of the circle (pi r squared) times the height...? And 9mm cases are tapered, however...

If they were cylindrical:

Reducing the radius by 0.005" reduces the volume by what approximate percentage, if the SAMMI spec for the outer diameter of a 9mm luger case is 0.394 - 0.010"...?

I'm asking is it statistically relevant, pressure-wise? Any more so than a bullet seated, say 0.005" deeper?

I'm confident the engineers out there have a better answer than I...

Cheers!

Vihta-Vuori in their third manual page 67 states that a 2mm change in seating depth in 9mm can raise pressure 11,600 PSI.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Vihta-Vuori in their third manual page 67 states that a 2mm change in seating depth in 9mm can raise pressure 11,600 PSI.

And 2mm = 0.0787", which is over 15 times the 0.005" increased seating depth figure I referred to...

Cheers!

P.S. Note that I am not questioning whether the internal valume of the 9mm case is reduced by thicker walls: my question is whether it is statistically significant, or sufficient to increase pressure dangerously.

 

[reddog81]

It seems like either they'd have to use a smaller bullet with those thicker walls or risk the round not chambering.

.355+.015+.015 = .385. SAAMI specs show .382 as the chamber dimension at the case mouth (assuming I'm reading their chart correctly...).

It shows .380 as the dimension for the case mouth. This would allow .356+.012+.012.

 

[bigedp51]

At the Brian Enos's reloading forums many of the competitive shooters use range pickup brass. And many of these reloaders use undersize dies to increase bullet grip.

I'm 70 years old and have chronologically gifted eyesight. Mixed brass is not my problem, I drink too much coffee and need laser guided bullets.

P.S. If you do not like your group size then move closer to the target. If you are leaving scorch marks on the target just move back a little.