OP
Double post
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A few tips for new self defense revolver carriers; fwiw
- Thread starter Becket
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OP
Knowing various manuals of arms gives one a chance when caught in that wrong place. Knowing how to operate other arms, and the positions of slide locks/safety levers, striker fired vs Da/Sa semiauto, and revolvers will give ME at least the ability to use another's weapon if needs be. Having someone at a mall or Wally World or wherever, with an active shooter about, slide me an extra firearm I know how to operate if I need one because my full mag just glitched, or my revolver is empty, well. I personally feel better about my chances, however I ended up in that situation. Can't pick and choose how a gunfight goes down, from what I've gleaned, but thats jmho. Like the old saying Mike Tyson paraphrased:
'Everyone has a plan, until they get punched in the mouth'.
'Everyone has a plan, until they get punched in the mouth'.
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walkin' trails
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I've been retired for about a year and a half now and am trying to renew my relationship with revolvers. I carried one when I started, but like just about everyone else in LE, I had moved onto semi autos. I had carried a revolver as a BUG up until the Glock 43 came along. The entity where I worked still tolerated the wheel guns, mainly because of the proverbial dinosaurs who ran the show who still packed them, but had not managed to stay up to date on good .38 Special duty ammo for probably 30 years.
Some of my observations are as follows:
I've got three J-frame 38s, two with two inch tubes, and one with a three inch barrel. I'm relearning that any bullet lighter that a 147 grain +P+ Federal Hydra Shok (or a 148 grain Wadcutter or a 158 grain SWCHP) does not shoot point of aim the further back one gets from the target, which is still of some concern, for among other things, being able to hit targets for LEOSA qualification out to 25 yards. 130 grain Winchester White Box seems to impact closer to point of aim, but the fixed sights of a J-frame manufactured before they started dovetailing and pinning front sights don't seem to like new stuff like 110 grain Critical Defense. All three of my guns have steel frames. I had a 37 years ago, but really didn't care for the added recoil from the lighter gun. I'm considering a couple of options, neither of them cheap - to either have the front sight milled off and base dovetailed along with the channel opened, or install a J-frame adjustable rear with comparable front sight so I can better dial in my carry ammo. Thirty-some years ago, I had a Colt Diamondback and discovered that light weight +P 38s such as 95 grain Silvertips or 90-95 grain options did not shoot well from guns designed around 158 grain bullets.
There is a respectable school of thought regarding the carrying of wadcutters as defensive rounds in small revolvers. The advantages include less likelihood of over penetration. Even the most modern, well designed defensive ammunition may either expand and not penetrate deeply enough to stop a deadly encounter, or not expand and over penetrate. In most tests that are referenced, 148 grain wadcutters still manage to achieve adequate penetration while creating channels that disrupt more testing medium than round nose lead or no expanding hollow points.
Pocket carry requires a pocket holster regardless of what anyone says. I'm not worried that my revolver with a stock trigger pull (one is standard DA-SA while the other two are DAO) is going to go off my its self in my pocket, but the pocket holster keeps the gun positioned properly in whatever pocket one is using to carry the gun. I prefer strong side, but remember conversations with old troopers who did a lot of traffic stops for years and how they would carry a two-inch in their jacket pocket and have their hand around the revolver when making a high risk stop under low light conditions.
Speed loaders are cumbersome and must be worked with to ensure that they do not release the spare bullets into the pocket by simply getting jiggled around. I have several HKS speed loaders for J-frames. The first two I purchased years ago have worked flawlessly, while the two I purchased years later do exactly what I described. They're relegated to training now. When I first began my LE career, I carried a 686 and purchased some Safariland speed loaders to feed it. I was working in a area that was pretty dusty and discovered that dust will jam them up - they will not release the bullets. I switched to HKS and never had another problem in that regard.
I currently use Bianchi speed strips. I'm on my second set because the first set wore out and broke after 25 years. I load two, skip one, and load three. This because its quicker to have a two-round top-off than to struggle with a fully loaded strip sometimes. Some have advocated for loading a full six in a strip used for a five shot due to the possibility of dropping a round. I fully understand this because I've also dropped rounds from strips when loading. Nevertheless, the first method I described tends to allow the shooter more control when loading. I am going to try Tuff strips when I get around to it. I'm thinking about the 8-round variety and space them two, skip, two, skip one.
When I first trained on a wheel gun, we weren't allowed speed loaders at the academy and were required to use speed loops. One can get pretty fast using speed loops if one has modified the loop to allow for pushing up two rounds from the nose, grasping them together, and aiming them for a charge hole together. It takes practice. Speed loops for a revolver never completely go out of style, however, they're not really practical for most concealed carry venues.
In terms of DA vs SA, yeah, it will probably be a major concern if one has to go to court regarding the use of self defense. I could say a lot about this, but I'd rather one really consider taking a more in depth class from a well-qualified instructor. Of the two LE agencies I worked for, both originally had handgun qualification courses that extended to 50 yards, and both encouraged the use of single action when shooting at that distance, even with semi autos. I spend so many years shooting Glock and S&W M&Ps on ranges at distance that I shot DA regardless of the distance. All it takes is practice with trigger control.
So for the new revolver shooter or even someone who has been carrying a wheelie for a while but has not received any formal training (or forgotten what they once received), I offer the following:
1. Know your ammo and find the round that shoots as close to point of aim as possible that is still an effective defense round. Just don't go selecting something such as a round nose lead or total metal jacket that will over penetrate or is too hot for you to effectively control.
2. Know your gun and how to shoot it so that you can distinguish between light bullets not impacting point of aim and poor marksmanship.
3. Carry intelligently. If you're carrying a revolver, especially an alloy J-frame, you're doing so because you want to conceal it from prying eyes. Learn about and select gun leather that allows you to conceal the gun safely as well as discretely.
4. Training with your reloading devices. Make educated assessments of what method works best for you.
5. Get training, not just from a legal standpoint, but from a tactical standpoint also so that you do not have to rely on Internet forums.
Some of my observations are as follows:
I've got three J-frame 38s, two with two inch tubes, and one with a three inch barrel. I'm relearning that any bullet lighter that a 147 grain +P+ Federal Hydra Shok (or a 148 grain Wadcutter or a 158 grain SWCHP) does not shoot point of aim the further back one gets from the target, which is still of some concern, for among other things, being able to hit targets for LEOSA qualification out to 25 yards. 130 grain Winchester White Box seems to impact closer to point of aim, but the fixed sights of a J-frame manufactured before they started dovetailing and pinning front sights don't seem to like new stuff like 110 grain Critical Defense. All three of my guns have steel frames. I had a 37 years ago, but really didn't care for the added recoil from the lighter gun. I'm considering a couple of options, neither of them cheap - to either have the front sight milled off and base dovetailed along with the channel opened, or install a J-frame adjustable rear with comparable front sight so I can better dial in my carry ammo. Thirty-some years ago, I had a Colt Diamondback and discovered that light weight +P 38s such as 95 grain Silvertips or 90-95 grain options did not shoot well from guns designed around 158 grain bullets.
There is a respectable school of thought regarding the carrying of wadcutters as defensive rounds in small revolvers. The advantages include less likelihood of over penetration. Even the most modern, well designed defensive ammunition may either expand and not penetrate deeply enough to stop a deadly encounter, or not expand and over penetrate. In most tests that are referenced, 148 grain wadcutters still manage to achieve adequate penetration while creating channels that disrupt more testing medium than round nose lead or no expanding hollow points.
Pocket carry requires a pocket holster regardless of what anyone says. I'm not worried that my revolver with a stock trigger pull (one is standard DA-SA while the other two are DAO) is going to go off my its self in my pocket, but the pocket holster keeps the gun positioned properly in whatever pocket one is using to carry the gun. I prefer strong side, but remember conversations with old troopers who did a lot of traffic stops for years and how they would carry a two-inch in their jacket pocket and have their hand around the revolver when making a high risk stop under low light conditions.
Speed loaders are cumbersome and must be worked with to ensure that they do not release the spare bullets into the pocket by simply getting jiggled around. I have several HKS speed loaders for J-frames. The first two I purchased years ago have worked flawlessly, while the two I purchased years later do exactly what I described. They're relegated to training now. When I first began my LE career, I carried a 686 and purchased some Safariland speed loaders to feed it. I was working in a area that was pretty dusty and discovered that dust will jam them up - they will not release the bullets. I switched to HKS and never had another problem in that regard.
I currently use Bianchi speed strips. I'm on my second set because the first set wore out and broke after 25 years. I load two, skip one, and load three. This because its quicker to have a two-round top-off than to struggle with a fully loaded strip sometimes. Some have advocated for loading a full six in a strip used for a five shot due to the possibility of dropping a round. I fully understand this because I've also dropped rounds from strips when loading. Nevertheless, the first method I described tends to allow the shooter more control when loading. I am going to try Tuff strips when I get around to it. I'm thinking about the 8-round variety and space them two, skip, two, skip one.
When I first trained on a wheel gun, we weren't allowed speed loaders at the academy and were required to use speed loops. One can get pretty fast using speed loops if one has modified the loop to allow for pushing up two rounds from the nose, grasping them together, and aiming them for a charge hole together. It takes practice. Speed loops for a revolver never completely go out of style, however, they're not really practical for most concealed carry venues.
In terms of DA vs SA, yeah, it will probably be a major concern if one has to go to court regarding the use of self defense. I could say a lot about this, but I'd rather one really consider taking a more in depth class from a well-qualified instructor. Of the two LE agencies I worked for, both originally had handgun qualification courses that extended to 50 yards, and both encouraged the use of single action when shooting at that distance, even with semi autos. I spend so many years shooting Glock and S&W M&Ps on ranges at distance that I shot DA regardless of the distance. All it takes is practice with trigger control.
So for the new revolver shooter or even someone who has been carrying a wheelie for a while but has not received any formal training (or forgotten what they once received), I offer the following:
1. Know your ammo and find the round that shoots as close to point of aim as possible that is still an effective defense round. Just don't go selecting something such as a round nose lead or total metal jacket that will over penetrate or is too hot for you to effectively control.
2. Know your gun and how to shoot it so that you can distinguish between light bullets not impacting point of aim and poor marksmanship.
3. Carry intelligently. If you're carrying a revolver, especially an alloy J-frame, you're doing so because you want to conceal it from prying eyes. Learn about and select gun leather that allows you to conceal the gun safely as well as discretely.
4. Training with your reloading devices. Make educated assessments of what method works best for you.
5. Get training, not just from a legal standpoint, but from a tactical standpoint also so that you do not have to rely on Internet forums.
Reminds me of:
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DUFAZcKL3k"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DUFAZcKL3k[/ame]
Man this thread is a doozy. I do agree on not using the single action on revolvers with hammers that I've carried, not because of unsourced urban legends about "liberal DAs" hanging you out to dry, but because using double action really isn't that hard to begin with and doesn't require additional time and manipulation (nor having to lower the hammer on a live round if things go well and you don't need to go-a-blastin').
I also agree that knowing how to use different pistols is great. You don't look like an idiot picking something up at the gun store, you can shoot your buddy's cool new pistol at the range, and you can safely clear the pistol somebody left on the toilet tank at work. You're not going to be in an active shooter situation where everybody has extra guns to go around and is sliding you a spare when yours biffs it. I'm reminded of that idiot Dan Bilzerian trying to get guns from cops during the Las Vegas shooting to return fire and roundly getting yelled at to get lost (in less pleasant terms).
I also agree that knowing how to use different pistols is great. You don't look like an idiot picking something up at the gun store, you can shoot your buddy's cool new pistol at the range, and you can safely clear the pistol somebody left on the toilet tank at work. You're not going to be in an active shooter situation where everybody has extra guns to go around and is sliding you a spare when yours biffs it. I'm reminded of that idiot Dan Bilzerian trying to get guns from cops during the Las Vegas shooting to return fire and roundly getting yelled at to get lost (in less pleasant terms).
Back in the dark ages, eliminating the spur and the SA seat was done on perfectly good revolvers to prevent them being used in single action for liability purposes. For example, an officer coming the hammer and then under stress shooting the suspect by mistake with a little too much pressure on the light SA trigger.
Unfortunately, some officers started staging the DA only triggers and that's a far less reliable process.
Personally, I don't feel an SA trigger offers much advantage at 25 yards or less. At 50 yards? A DA trigger is fine on a B-27 sized target, but on a 4" or 6" round plate, an SA trigger starts to show its worth. At 100 yards an SA trigger is very nice to have.
50 and 100 yard ranges are not common in a self defense shoot and may well be very questionable, but I'm not inclined to bob hammers and remove SA sears on a pistol that also sees extensive range use in addition to concealed carry.
I'm also not inclined to use a DA trigger exclusively if there is ample time and the SA trigger offers an advantage.
Revolver wise if a shooter opts for speedloaders there are a few different methods of reloading vary a bit in the details.
1) The FBI reload is the oldest. With this reload you press the cylinder latch with the thumb on your right hand, and then hold the revolver with your left hand and press the cylinder out of the frame with your middle and ring fingers. You then hold the revolver vertically and press the ejector rod with your thumb to eject the cases. Then without changing your hold on the revolver, point it muzzle down and use your right hand to get the speed loader out of its pouch and drop the rounds in the cylinder.
It's the fastest method and it works well with a .38 Special revolver with a full length ejector rod.
It doesn't work as well with snub nose revolvers with a short ejector rod as it won't push the cases all the away out of the cylinder, and the amount of thumb movement available doesn't impart much inertia.
The FBI reload also results in your left hand being almost in a wrist lock when holding the revolver muzzle down to insert the rounds in the cylinder.
It can also be problematic with .357 magnum and other magnum loads for two reasons:
First, magnum loads develop a lot of heat and while a forcing cone won't be hot after 5-6 rounds of .38 Special it can get very hot after 5-7 rounds of .357 Magnum loads. It wasn't unheard of for an officer or agent to actually react and drop the revolver when the hot forcing cone came in contact with the side of his middle finger.
Second, full power .357 magnum loads can be a bit sticky on ejection with the result that a thumb on the ejector rod might not be enough.
2) The Universal reload was developed to address the weak ejection issues with the FBI reload. It starts out the same way and ends the same way as the FBI reload. The difference is that rather than using your thumb to eject the cartridges, you use your left hand to hold the revolver muzzle up and then slap the ejector rod down with the palm of your right hand. That provides a lot more ejection force.
It solves the weak ejection issue, but it is slightly slower. It also limits the effective length of the ejector rod as your thumb along side the rod reduces the travel slightly. Slapping the ejector rod with the palm of your right hand also creates the potential to hit the ejector rod from an angle slightly to the side. That's the number 1 way ejector rods get bent. You need to be careful bring your palm straight down on the ejector rod.
3) The Stress Fire reload addresses the additional problems of the previous methods.
In the Stress Fire reload, you use your right thumb to operate the cylinder latch while using your middle and ring fingers on the left hand top push the cylinder out of the frame. However at this point you move your right thumb farther forward between cylinder and frame to hold the cylinder open. Then you hold the revolver muzzle up and use your left palm to slap down on the ejector rod, so that the barrel passes between your thumb and index finger. That helps you get a more vertical strike on the ejector rod.
More importantly, your fingers are never supporting the forcing cone and won't get burned by a hot forcing cone and drop the revolver.
At this point you grasp the revolver in front of the cylinder with your thumb across the front of the cylinder and the tip against the crane recess in the frame. The ejector rod is between thumb and index finger and you use the bottom of your index finger to pinch the frame against your thumb to hold the revolver. When you turn the revolver muzzle down, you will not be wrist locked and you can keep your head up and eyes on target, while you load the revolver with your right hand.
It is the most reliable method, but the downside is that it is also the slowest method, although with practice it's still a very rapid evolution.
^^^This is the clearest word picture I've seen on revolver reload under sress.
If you looked closely, I was quoting Clint Smith. He's a former Marine, LEO, and runs Thunder Ranch. He's not hard to find on You Tube. If you'd like to trade with him, let me know. I'd love to sit in on that one.
max503
Member
I basically agree with what the OP said. I've found it very helpful to practice close range, one handed, double action with the J frame.
AJ
US Veteran
Try some one hand weak hand shooting. We were taught that in the Corps when I was assigned to the USMC Security Pacific as a weapons instructor.
AJ
US Veteran
You think you know all of the tricks of the trade, and then something new comes up. Sometimes it is a better way to do things, and sometimes it is not as good as what you practice. But it is different, gotta learn something new every day!
That reloading post makes me miss break-opens.
BTW, I use those "rubber speedloaders", they are like a speed strip but round so all 5 go in at once. They are trim enough that there are minimal grip-clearance problems, have no issue with dropping rounds, and the tab makes them easier to handle. Plus they're cheap!
BTW, I use those "rubber speedloaders", they are like a speed strip but round so all 5 go in at once. They are trim enough that there are minimal grip-clearance problems, have no issue with dropping rounds, and the tab makes them easier to handle. Plus they're cheap!
OLDSTER
Member
My range trips with my snubbies are like OLD COP; 3,5,7 yards. off hand, rapid fire, put 10 rounds each distance into a dinner sized paper plate ( occasional "flier" doesn't count ).
StrawHat
Member
Those are good methods and probably what is/was used by most shooters. I used a different technique. My right thumb operated the cylinder release. Using my right hand, I elevated the muzzle to vertical. My left hand swung out the cylinder and activated the ejector rod. As my right hand was lowering the muzzle to point at the ground, my left hand grabbed one and loaded fresh cartridges into the cylinder. (My speedloaders were positioned to the left of my belt buckle). My left hand than closed the cylinder and joined my right hand in my shooting grip. My right hand never changed position on the grip.
It takes a bit of practice but what doesn't?
Kevin
A couple thoughts on these divergent opinions.
First, it's pretty common practice to practice things that are unlikely to ever be factors in a armed citizen self defense shoot.
For example, reloading. Even in law enforcement officer involved shoots 71% of all shoots are over and done with 6 shots or less fired. 83% are completed with 10 shots or less fired, and 92% are done in 15 shots or less. Add a round in a chamber with a 15 round magazine and you cover 94% of all LEO involved shoots.
In other words a reload is only required 7% of the time, when people who go into dark and scary placing looking for bad people, and while using a 15+1 pistol a reload is only needed about 6% of the time. For an armed citizen who should be using good judgement and good SA to avoid those situations the need for a reload with even a J frame is next to non existent.
Yet we all practice the skill anyway.
Similarly, folks who take concealed carry seriously won't carry a pistol until it's demonstrated near 100% reliability. That's because if it jams, the odds are you've just lost the fight even if you clear it quickly. At a minimum you've lost the momentum in the fight.
Yet we still practice immediate action drills anyway.
Second, folks like Clint Smith need to make a living and if he didn't include all the other stuff like tactical reloads and immediate action drills in a defensive handgun class, he'd have a lot less to teach.
Third, there are pitfalls in relying on experts and authoritarian arguments. For example, in addition to his USMC background Clint Smith also has 7 years in law enforcement, including SWAT. In other words, his base experience isn't all that well aligned with the needs of armed citizen defensive shoots.
The counter argument is that if you train for the worst, you'll be ready for everything else. That may be true to an extent but it can lead to choices in equipment and priorities in training that don't serve you as well as could be the case of you instead trained for your situation rather than something else.
The bottom line is that you have to think about what you really need and the equip and train accordingly in a manner that makes doing the right things to optimize your performance easy and natural. Training for a SWAT team probably isn't it.
——
Personally, I'm proficient with a number of SA and SA/DA revolvers, SA pistols and SA/DA pistols and I suspect I could pick up just about any handgun and quickly employ it. But that's motivated by a broad interest in owning and shooting a wide range handguns. If it ever becomes an asset in a fight that's certainly a good thing, but it's also very, very unlikely.
All self-defense revolvers should be DAO as far as I'm concerned. The proposed scenarios for potentially needing single-action in the context of civilian carry are mostly contrived. I'm sure it's possible as is pretty much anything and there have likely even been a couple of situations where it's been useful, but they are so astronomically rare for me to give much concerns towards it. Kind of like needing a full size auto loader with 3 reloads. Everything is a trade-off and I don't see it as being a good trade.
However, I'm primarily referencing snub revolvers as I don't see much use in carrying a large revolver over an autoloader. I'd soon carry my Glock 19 or even something like a Sig P365 over a K-frame. The enclosed hammer snub on the other hand fits the needs of civilian concealed carry exceedingly well IMO. I know others see it differently, but I have yet to see any hard evidence to make me change that perspective and I just don't put much stock in the theoretical or one in a million occurrences. My focus will always be on what's practical and most likely to occur and picking the most effective and appropriate tool accordingly.
However, I'm primarily referencing snub revolvers as I don't see much use in carrying a large revolver over an autoloader. I'd soon carry my Glock 19 or even something like a Sig P365 over a K-frame. The enclosed hammer snub on the other hand fits the needs of civilian concealed carry exceedingly well IMO. I know others see it differently, but I have yet to see any hard evidence to make me change that perspective and I just don't put much stock in the theoretical or one in a million occurrences. My focus will always be on what's practical and most likely to occur and picking the most effective and appropriate tool accordingly.
