A question for the Texans

norad45

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Or really for anyone interested in Texas history. 173 years ago today the Mexicans under Santa Anna massacred 400 Texas prisoners after they had surrendered under terms at Goliad. What do you think would have happened had Fannin and his men been able to reach the Alamo before the assault there? Do you think the outcome would have been much different?
 
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Or really for anyone interested in Texas history. 173 years ago today the Mexicans under Santa Anna massacred 400 Texas prisoners after they had surrendered under terms at Goliad. What do you think would have happened had Fannin and his men been able to reach the Alamo before the assault there? Do you think the outcome would have been much different?
 
I do think Fannin and 400 men would have made a difference. They estimate there were 2400 or so mexicans in the battle at the Alamo and 180-250 defending it. They still managed to kill or wound 500-600 mexicans. 400 more defenders might have made a huge difference.
 
Well - WHICH is it?

Originally posted by Clayton:
I don't think Fannin and 400 men would have made a difference.

THEN you declare:

400 more defenders might have made a huge difference.

Can't have it both ways.
 
Like what Jim Bowie said when he looked over the wall and saw 2400 Mexicans
"I didn't know we were pouring concrete today"
icon_biggrin.gif
 
Originally posted by CAJUNLAWYER:
Like what Jim Bowie said when he looked over the wall and saw 2400 Mexicans
"I didn't know we were pouring concrete today"
icon_biggrin.gif

I heard he said , "Dam* ! They gotta lotta guys !"
 
Originally posted by Amici:
Well - WHICH is it?

Originally posted by Clayton:
I don't think Fannin and 400 men would have made a difference.

THEN you declare:

400 more defenders might have made a huge difference.

Can't have it both ways.

Do you realize that words in capital letters and words in bold make it seem as if you are shouting?
 
I will not feed the trolls.... I will not feed the trolls.... I will not feed the trolls.... I will not feed the trolls.... I will not feed the trolls....
 
It might have made a difference, but not a good one. The problem is that Santa Anna had more than one army in the field. San Antonio was really a backdoor to the colonies. Goliad was the frontdoor. If the Mexican army at Goliad had found no one to fight with, Houston would have never had enough time to form his army. It should be rememberd that Houston never felt that San Antonio was a particularly important place to defend.
 
I've always wondered whether 400 men could have fought their way into the Alamo. The Mexican pickets would surely have warned of their approach.

Really, except as it served as a delay for Santa Anna, the Alamo was probably a bad place to defend. But the 13 days that the seige took bought Sam Houston vital time.

We don't hear much about Alamo Day down here these days. The liberal media are probably afraid of offending those people whose Cinco de Mayo celebrations we get to read so much about.

It is a part of the national legacy that we are losing. If it's even mentioned in schools now, it's usually to point out that Travis left his wife, or some such attempt to villify the Texas cause. Integration ruined our schools in more ways than one.

T-Star
 
What with Sec. of State Clinton making nice with the Mexican government and blaming their ills on "Our insatiable demand for illegal drugs..." (rich irony considering the self-confessed pot-smoking of our President and Ms. Clinton's spouse), I was reminded of relationships with Mexico in an earlier time.

Harken back to 1836 to San Antonio de Bexar, where a small group of Texians are holed up against overwhelming forces of the Mexican Army. Below is an excerpt of one of the letters from Col. William B. Travis, written from inside the Fort of the Alamo, on March 3, 1836.
No particular relevance of this letter to today's situation, I just thought that it was interesting to reflect on our history.

To The President of the Convention:
In the present confusion of the political authorities of the country, and in the absence of the commander-in-chief, I beg leave to communicate to you the situation of this garrison....I look to the colonies alone for aid; unless it arrives soon, I shall have to fight the enemy on his own terms. I will, however, do the best I can under the circumstances, and I feel confident that the determined valour and desperate courage, heretofore evinced by my men, will not fail them in the last struggle, and although they may be sacrifieced to the vengeance of a Gothic enemy, the victory will cost the enemy so dear, that it will be worse for him than a defeat. I hope your honorable body will hasten on reinforcements, ammunition, and provisions to our aid, as soon as possible....
If these things are promptly sent, and large reinforcements are hastened to this frontier, this neighborhood will be the great and decisive battle ground. The power of Santa Anna is to be met here or in the colonies; we had better meet them here, than to suffer a war of desolation to rage our settlements. A blood-red banner waves from the church of Bexar, and in the camp above us, in token that the war is one of vengeance against rebels; they have declared us as such, and demanded that we should surrender at discretion or this garrison should be put to the sword. Their threats have had no influence on me or my men, but to make all fight with desperation, and that high-souled courage which characterizes the patriot, who is willing to die in defense of his country's liberty and his own honour.
The citizens of this municipality are all our enemies except those who have joined us heretofore; we have but three Mexicans now in the fort; those who have not joined us in this extremity, should be declared public enemies, and their property should aid in paying the expenses of the war.
The bearer of this will give you your honorable body, a statement more in detail, should he escape through the enemy's lines. God and Texas! --Victory or Death!!
 
In Texas, it is more commonly known as the Battle of Coleto Creek. After the Alamo fell, Fannin couldn't decide when to leave to join Houston and waited until the Mexican army was almost upon him to move out of Goliad. His army was caught out in the open with no provisions and no water.

These volunteers were surely martyrs to the cause, but Fannin is not my idea of a hero.
 
OK
Back on the thread...how many people here have been to the Alamo?
I was in awe of how small it actually is, and will always be in wonderment on how so few held off for so long. That was a true example of Texas charachter. Hell with the tenacity the defenders exhibited if they had 40 more of the same kind they might have won!!
 
I would have to think that nearly every one of us who grew up in Texas has been to the Alamo. Shoot, I remember in my sophmore year of high school we did a field trip to the Alamo, about 250 miles each way.
 
The compound of the Alamo was quite large. The city absorbed almost all of it before some one realized the importance as a symbol of freedom.
 
Only the chapel and maybe a small portion of the compound remains.

T-Star
 
Originally posted by 29aholic:
OK
Back on the thread...how many people here have been to the Alamo?
I was in awe of how small it actually is, and will always be in wonderment on how so few held off for so long. That was a true example of Texas charachter. Hell with the tenacity the defenders exhibited if they had 40 more of the same kind they might have won!!

Phil Collins (the British musician, of all people) just donated a model of the Alamo to the organization that runs it. It helps clarify how big the Alamo compound really was. 40 more defenders may have allowed them to hold out for an hour or two longer, but unfortunately the compound was just too big.



.
 
Originally posted by armadillo:
In Texas, it is more commonly known as the Battle of Coleto Creek. After the Alamo fell, Fannin couldn't decide when to leave to join Houston and waited until the Mexican army was almost upon him to move out of Goliad. His army was caught out in the open with no provisions and no water.

These volunteers were surely martyrs to the cause, but Fannin is not my idea of a hero.

In fact, both the Texans at the Alamo and the ones at Goliad disobeyed their orders from Sam Houston. He wanted them to come with him to concentrate forces.

If they had done that, or if the ones at Goliad had stayed in their fort and fought to the death, who knows what would have happened. I've seen both Goliad and the Alamo. The Presidio at Goliad actually looks more defensible to me. And they had more men.
 
Here's a little information that you might find interesting especially if you are a Mason. Sam Houston, William Travis, Davey Crocket, Jim Bowie, James Bonham, James Fannin, Ben Milam, Anson Jones, James Bonham and General Santa Anna were all Masons and all fought for in either the Alamo, Goliad, or San Jacinto. Legend has said that the only reason that Sam Houston did not have Santa Anna killed is because Santa Anna gave the Masonic Grand Hailing Sign of Distress.

Dr. Anson Jones was a Mason and petitioned the Grand Lodge of Louisianna for a charter to start a Grand Lodge in the Republic of Texas. Dr. Jones was granted the charter and carried it in his saddle bag during the Battle of San Jacinto. When the Grand Lodge of the Republic of Texas was formed in 1837, Dr. Anson Jones was the first Grand Master
 
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