A special order New Model 3

[iby]

I looked at this gun for quite a while.
I was surprised that nobody bought so I did.
A lot of special features

 

[rct269]

Well, you're just showing off!!

I was going to do the same when I saw that "A special order" business, but you got me beat all to Hell----and back!!

Mine had the target sights and the Russian style trigger guard, but you cheated!!

Ralph Tremaine

I just remembered something! I also had a NM #3 Target---you know, one of those chambered ONLY in 32-44 or 38-44. This one was chambered in "38 WINCHESTER CTG"------and stamped right on the barrel.

The bad news is the letter writing folks couldn't confirm the caliber---only that "it appeared to be a special order for a single unit".

Roy explains all such as this with one of his favorite catch-alls: "They would do anything anybody would pay them to do."

Oh well-----------

 

[Boulder350]

That's a beautiful, special revolver!

Congrats on the purchase. Is it silver plated?

 

[iby]

show off

Well, you're just showing off!!

I was going to do the same when I saw that "A special order" business, but you got me beat all to Hell----and back!!

Mine had the target sights and the Russian style trigger guard, but you cheated!!

Ralph Tremaine

I just remembered something! I also had a NM #3 Target---you know, one of those chambered ONLY in 32-44 or 38-44. This one was chambered in "38 WINCHESTER CTG"------and stamped right on the barrel.

The bad news is the letter writing folks couldn't confirm the caliber---only that "it appeared to be a special order for a single unit".

Oh well-----------

Ralph
Where else would you show off if not here on the S&W forum

 

[iby]

That's a beautiful, special revolver!

Congrats on the purchase. Is it silver plated?

Mark.
The shoulder stock is also silver plated

 

[Masterpiece]

That's a beautiful, special revolver!

iby,

Most definitely a Beautiful Revolver as Mark noted...Extraordinary Find...Congrats!!

It also looks to be a .44-40 Frontier SA with the Aux. Cyl. possibly being chambered for .44 Russian...Yes or No??

 

[iby]

iby,

Most definitely a Beautiful Revolver as Mark noted...Extraordinary Find...Congrats!!

It also looks to be a .44-40 Frontier SA with the Aux. Cyl. possibly being chambered for .44 Russian...Yes or No??

yes

.......

 

[rct269]

All THAT---AND Silver plated??!!!!!!

CHEEEEEEEESH!!!!

Well mine sold for $6500 when my collection was liquidated---the way things have been going you probably got yours for about half that---and if/when you sell it, it'll go for twice that!!

A definite BUMMER!!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Masterpiece]

The Icing On the Cake!!

Most definitely a Beautiful Revolver as Mark noted...Extraordinary Find...Congrats!!

It also looks to be a .44-40 Frontier SA with the Aux. Cyl. possibly being chambered for .44 Russian...Yes or No??

iby,

Thanks so much for posting Your Letter to confirm my suspicions...That really puts the "Icing on the Cake"...You're "Very" lucky to have been able to add that Extraordinary Revolver to Your Collection!!

I also had a pretty good idea it was a Target Variation as well although I couldn't get a good read on it until I downloaded Your Photos to edit them...Thanks again!!

I especially appreciate it given in the 50+ yrs. I collected S&W Lg.Frame Top-Breaks nothing even close ever crossed my path...You're a lucky man to have found it!!

 

[iby]

Masterpiece
Thank you for the words of appreciation.
I keep thinking I should sell guns not buy guns but this one was too tempting
When I edited my post it deleted the image of the letter. Glad you saw it

 

[mrcvs]

Masterpiece
Thank you for the words of appreciation.
I keep thinking I should sell guns not buy guns but this one was too tempting
When I edited my post it deleted the image of the letter. Glad you saw it

Can you post the letter again? It seems to be missing.

 

[Masterpiece]

I keep thinking I should sell guns not buy guns but this one was too tempting. When I edited my post it deleted the image of the letter. Glad you saw it

iby,

Glad I was able to see the Letter before you deleted it...Thanks!!

As to noting you think about selling guns rather than buying them...My thoughts as well for 50+ yrs...Thought didn't last long though so I kept on buying...Ha!!-Ha!!

 

[iby]

Can you post the letter again? It seems to be missing.

It deleted when I was editing my post

 

[BMur]

Beyond Amazing

Amazing piece iby.
The Silver finish is exceptional but what really blows my mind is the dual caliber set up “FROM THE FACTORY”..?

The letter states it is a 44/40 WCF Frontier model that was shipped with an additional 44 S&W caliber (44 Russian) cylinder.

Those two calibers are not the same and can be found documented and separated by 7 thousandths between bullet diameters during that period. That’s a lot.

This was obviously left over black powder era mentality I think.

I’m very interested in knowing what the bore mics at and with target sights.? Amazing. This SPECIAL ORDER was definitely for a person who was very keen on reloading.

I honestly don’t know how you could shoot the 44 Russian round through a 44 Winchester bore.


Murph

 

[BMur]

Specs

iby,
Just some specs. Here is just one reference. Lists the 44 WCF at standard .424 bullet diameter and the S&W Russian at .429.

I have several other references that can vary some but still the margin is out of tolerance.

I think it’s very interesting and also unique. Never seen this before.

Murph

 

[iby]

murph

I have no idea of shooting it but I think I have heard it said on this Forum that S&W would do anything a customer was willing to pay for

 

[BMur]

Adapted

iby,

An extremely common term used and published often during that time was ADAPTED.
Example: This round is ADAPTED to be used in both a rifle and pistol.
Significant part of the black powder era was Adapting. Sort of like making it work. A very common mentality.
That’s why I believe the person who Special ordered this unique set was a reloader. Sure would like to have seen his set up. Must have been a mechanical artist of sorts.

Murph

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

Whoa! You better hold on Murph. That page from the 1953 Lyman
handbook number 39 has LOTS of errors! Case in point, I have an
1881 Colt SAA “Frontier Six Shooter” and I have measured the
groove diameter in it. If one measures from center to center of
the grooves, one does get .424” BUT if one measures the groove
diameter next to the lands, it is .427”. If you look slightly above
that entry at the specs for 44 American, it lists the groove diameter
as .419”. It just goes to show that mistakes were made even back
then.

Cheers!
Webb

 

[bcowern]

iby,

My moustache stood straight out when I saw your special order, silver plated NM3 Frontier, with accompanying letter, cylinder, and stock.

Congratulations on overcoming your initial inertia.

Regards,
bcowern

 

[BMur]

Reference

Hi There,

Whoa! You better hold on Murph. That page from the 1953 Lyman
handbook number 39 has LOTS of errors! Case in point, I have an
1881 Colt SAA “Frontier Six Shooter” and I have measured the
groove diameter in it. If one measures from center to center of
the grooves, one does get .424” BUT if one measures the groove
diameter next to the lands, it is .427”. If you look slightly above
that entry at the specs for 44 American, it lists the groove diameter
as .419”. It just goes to show that mistakes were made even back
then.

Cheers!
Webb

Actually Webb,
The reference is from an original Ideal catalog circa 1891.
The reference for the American is correct. They often measured outside lubricated bullets at the heel. Another odd ball is the 41 Long Colt often seen as .386. That is the heel measurement of the outside lubricated .405 diameter bullet. So the references are accurate. In 1891 the 41 Long Colt was then available with an inside lubricated .386 Hollow based bullet.

The .424 is the old measurement for the 44 WCF. As I clearly stated the references vary. The 44 Russian is also found listed as .430,.431,.432 in several early references. I also have a collection of 44 Russian antique molds from different manufacturers and they do in fact vary but none are compatible with the 44 WCF.

I have also mic’d many Frontier bores and found variances between .424-.427 Groove diameter and .414-.417 land diameter. That is too small for the 44 Russian.


As I also mentioned, I’ve never seen this before. That’s why I was very interested in knowing what the bore measures on ibys gun. The factory may have ADAPTED the bore to shoot both rounds by altering the Land an groove diameter.

Murph