AA#7 in slide 9mil 1911

[SW CQB 45]

In my quest to find an accurate load for my 9mil PPC 1911 5"

I tried this receipe

Sundance 147 Lead FP
6.3 grains AA#7
COAL 1.140"
I figured 900 fps/but actually chrono with an avg of 950 fps
CCI SP primer

while this load has potential and shot decent (meaning I have to practice more) out of a gun that I have no real time behind...

one thing I did not like was the AA#7 powder flakes that were in my slide rails, barrel locking grooves, on my barrel, and in general inside my slide.

is AA known for this? (I have alot of #5)
is this burned or unburned powder flakes?
did I not have enough crimp for a good burn?
maybe not the correct mixture?
there was no leading of the barrel, so the slug could have been pushed a little harder.

I crimp by feel and by looking at the cartridge. I find it difficult to hold the caliper on the edge of the crimped case to determine how much crimp. I check each cartridge for matches with a chamber gauge.

any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

my next load will be....
same slug but 4.0 of WSF which should produce a little higher FPS.

TIA

 

[Steve C]

AA7 is a slow powder, pretty much at the slowest you can use in the small 9mm cartridge. Like most powders it will have an optimum pressure and you aren't there yet. I'd read once that AA7 is used in hot 9mm carbine loads in Israeli military ammunition.

Go to Accurate Arms Company, Inc. and download their latest manual. You will find the data for No. 7 and a 145gr MCB RN BB lead bullet in the 9mm for No.7 to start at 6.5grs for 926 fps, maximum 7.2 grs for 1,052 fps at 29,500 psi with an OAL of 1.140. This data should be applicable to a 147gr lead bullet.

Velocity data was taken from a 4" barrel so the extra 50 fps is likely due to the longer 5" barrel of your gun.

 

[fredj338]

As Steve said, AA#7 is at it's best running hotter for complete combustion. If you only want 900-950fps, I would drop to WSF, but AA#5 should work too, close to WSF in burn rate. You are at Lyman's starting data & starting data w/ slower powders always yields unburnt powder IME.

 

[SW CQB 45]

OK, I will crank on the knob to turn up the powder.

I may start at 7 grains of AA#7.

I will also try the WSF 950FPS load too.

trying to look for accuracy with miminal recoil to regain front sight quicker

thanks

 

[shovelwrench]

trying to look for accuracy with miminal recoil to regain front sight quicker

thanks

FWIW,
I've been running 147gr TC 3gr bullseye from my .38 super @ 870FPS, 1"@25yds. A 10lb recoil spring, and large radius FPS, is what it takes to run.(I'm well under published data, and lately have been running 150gr LSWC over 2.8gr Bullseye)

Translate that into 9mm, prolly 2.5gr Bullseye, but your gonna have to play with the springs and make sure the FPS has a large radius to run the slide.

In my 6" 1911, my loads have less recoil then the old 2.8 of bullseye under a 148gr DEWC from a heavy barrel .38.

 

[PPCSHOOTER]

THIS IS WHAT A GOOD 9MM WILL SHOOT AT 50YDS.

I HAVE NEVER GOTTEN ACCURACY THIS GOOD AT 50 YDS WITH A CAST LEAD BULLET (9MM THAT IS).

BUT I DO AGREE THAT WSF IS A GREAT 9MM POWDER. JP

 

[shovelwrench]

THIS IS WHAT A GOOD 9MM WILL SHOOT AT 50YDS.

I HAVE NEVER GOTTEN ACCURACY THIS GOOD AT 50 YDS WITH A CAST LEAD BULLET (9MM THAT IS).

Thats great, but whats the load?

 

[SW CQB 45]

FWIW,
I've been running 147gr TC 3gr bullseye from my .38 super @ 870FPS, 1"@25yds. A 10lb recoil spring, and large radius FPS, is what it takes to run.(I'm well under published data, and lately have been running 150gr LSWC over 2.8gr Bullseye)

Translate that into 9mm, prolly 2.5gr Bullseye, but your gonna have to play with the springs and make sure the FPS has a large radius to run the slide.

In my 6" 1911, my loads have less recoil then the old 2.8 of bullseye under a 148gr DEWC from a heavy barrel .38.

What slugs you have 150 SWC¿ I interested in swc 9mil hvy slug.

Tia

 

[shovelwrench]

The only ones I could find with no crimp groove. Even though they are available in .356, I've been running their .357 (actually .358). At target velocities the extra .002" does'nt make much difference, plus I can run em from my .38s.

Meister Bullets – Full line of hard cast lead cowboy and ISPC/IDPA bullets, new brass, cartridges, black powder SPG lead bullets, reloading supplies, hard swaged lead bullets, shooting supplies, T-shirts, hats and patches

 

[SW CQB 45]

The only ones I could find with no crimp groove. Even though they are available in .356, I've been running their .357 (actually .358). At target velocities the extra .002" does'nt make much difference, plus I can run em from my .38s.

Meister Bullets – Full line of hard cast lead cowboy and ISPC/IDPA bullets, new brass, cartridges, black powder SPG lead bullets, reloading supplies, hard swaged lead bullets, shooting supplies, T-shirts, hats and patches

Thanks...i seen those on meister but turned away because of the price. I like the holes on paper from a wc or swc. I may bite the "bullet" and order 1000. Meister slugs are priced near jacketed slugs.

PPC turned me onto a accurate load which may be the pics

124xtp and 5.5 wsf which exceeds max by .2. I was going to start at 5,3 however advertized cup was well below max.

What slug you run.....147 TC?

Tia

 

[shovelwrench]

Personally, I think thats quite hot for any type of target use....1100FPS+

Do you plan on shooting at 50yds or just the 600 match? I know guys shooting .38 special 147 DEWC running 700FPS, or .45 @ 800. I don't shoot much PPC but I don't see much need for ammo running that hot. You have the right idea... low recoil, decent accuracy. A gun that shoots 2" groups @ 50yds with next to no recoil will likely wind up being more accurate for ya in a match then something that recoils like heck and shoots a 1" group @ 50....Simple reason, time saved on recoil management, gives you more time to aim.


The 147TC I run are Missouri Bullets

 

[SW CQB 45]

1500-150 round match with 48 rounds shot from the 50 yd line.

I will make test rounds for 800 and 900 FPS to determine which is best for accuracy out to 50 yds.

my 5" PPC 1911 is running a 9lbs recoil spring but I have a 10lbs and a 12er.

when you say large radius FPS, I am assuming you are referring to the firing pin spring...but what do you mean large radius.

springfield armory guns with titanium firing pins with factory springs is what I run.

the 147 lead I use is Sundance and very similiar if not the same as the Missouri boat ride you use. http://www.sundancebullets.com/bullets/products/Pistol-Bullets/9-MM/9MM-147gr-FP-250box

 

[shovelwrench]

The firing pin stop is the small block that slides in the rear of the slide. The bottom corner where it meets the hammer as the slide comes back is the radius I'm talkin about. If you use a small radius it will take a lighter slide spring to make the gun run with very light loads, if it will run at all. If you use a very large radius, you can run a heavier recoil spring with lighter loads. That radius affects where the recoil forces from the slide are taken up the most. A small radius imparts more slide speed/recoil on the hammer, significantly slowing the slide earlier hence the need for a much lighter recoil spring to keep the slide speed up with light loads. It also makes the recoil feel much snappier/earlier. A large radius FPS allows the hammer to be cocked by the slide easier, keeping slide speed up, allowing for a heavier recoil spring and a more gradual push for recoil.

With my loads my gun would not run with the small radius FPS regardless of how light I made that recoil spring. I had to go to the large radius FPS to keep the slide speed up. I tried all the way down to a 7lb spring. I am running a 6" slide though. If you haven't tried a small radius FPS before it is worth a go, they really change how recoil from a 1911 feels.

Heres FPS from some 1911s I have with varying radius'. The one on the left is from a .38 special built by Giles. The super large radius is needed because of the long cartridge and very little power left from the .38. The middle is my Super. The right is from my .45.

Obviously the left one would allow the lightest loads with the heaviest recoil springs for that given load, which to me yields the most manageable recoil. A lot of people like how the small radius feels, earlier/snappier recoil. You can tune how you think it should feel by interchanging the radius size and recoil springs.

Here's a link to a good cheap FPS if your interested in playing a little. Some fitting is required but they're pretty easy to do.

 

[SW CQB 45]

thanks for the info ShovelWrench.

 

[SW CQB 45]

I found this info on the 1911forum.

The sofest 9mm minor load that I have found is 3.1 of VV310 with a berrys 147 gr @ 1.160.

I have VV310 but I have no 9mil data and the book does not list 310 in 9mil. I am not sure what this will do but I can use Clays data and back off from max.

the only clays data I could find was in a lyman 147 lead and 1.9 Clays 669 FPS with a max of 2.8+(compressed) 873 FPS CUP 21,700 (no data ref firearms or test fixture used for this results).

does anyone use VV310 in 9mil?

9mm competition loads - 1911Forum

1 NORMA R1
2 Winchester WAALite
3 VihtaVuori N310
4 Accurate Arms Nitro 100
5 Alliant e3
6 Hodgdon TITEWAD
7 Ramshot Competition
8 Alliant Red Dot
9 Alliant Promo
10 Hodgdon CLAYS
11 Alliant Clay Dot
12 IMR, Co Hi-Skor 700-X
13 Alliant Bullseye
14 Hodgdon TITEGROUP
15 Alliant American Select
16 Accurate Arms Solo 1000
17 Alliant Green Dot
18 Winchester WST
19 IMR, Co Trail Boss
20 Winchester Super Handicap
21 Hodgdon INTERNATIONAL
22 Accurate Arms Solo 1250
23 IMR, Co PB
24 VihtaVuori N320
25 Accurate Arms No. 2
26 Ramshot Zip
27 IMR, Co SR 7625
28 Hodgdon HP-38
29 Winchester 231
30 Alliant 20/28
31 Alliant Unique
32 Hodgdon UNIVERSAL
33 Alliant Power Pistol
34 VihtaVuori N330
35 Alliant Herco
36 Winchester WSF
37 VihtaVuori N340
38 IMR, Co Hi-Skor 800-X
39 IMR, Co SR 4756
40 Ramshot True Blue
41 Accurate Arms No. 5
42 Hodgdon HS-6
43 Winchester AutoComp
44 Ramshot Silhouette
45 VihtaVuori 3N37
46 VihtaVuori N350
47 Hodgdon HS-7
48 VihtaVuori 3N38
49 Alliant Blue Dot
50 Accurate Arms No. 7
51 Alliant Pro Reach
52 Hodgdon LONGSHOT
53 Alliant 410
54 Alliant 2400
55 Ramshot Enforcer
56 Accurate Arms No. 9

 

[nitesite]

I try to duplicate duty ammo for the most part and really like a MAX* load of Accurate #7 under a 147-gr XTP. Very clean burning in my G34, no residue at all, one of the cleanest I have ever tried.

*carefully worked up to (found it safe in MY firearm) so no claim is made about anyone else trying this idea.

 

[Skip Sackett]

This is kind of like having two threads on one subject but.....................


I'm with nitesite here. NEVER, NEVER NEVER try to develop a load that is near maximum velocity with a fast powder, never. Did I say never?

Pressure spikes are known in Clays with just a tad of an overcharge, as little as .1gr. It is one powder I'm not going to use for a "maximum velocity load".

The slower the better for this endeavor. AA#7 will get you there and so will Longshot. I understand that there isn't any in your area. Stick with the AA#7. From all data I can find, with a 147gr XTP they are telling us we can use 7.2gr of AA#7 while their minimum is 6.5gr for around 950fps.

There is far less possibility of having a KB with a slower powder than with a uberfast powder which is what VV310 is. If it is faster than Bullseye, it isn't going to be used to develop fast loads with heavy bullets. You are just asking for trouble.

 

[SW CQB 45]

I is actually trying to develop two loads here and stick with them.

A low recoil, 100% function/reliability, accurate bullet for PPC out to 50 yds. (I can use reloads for this match). this slug has to have the emphhh to pass through the target and backing which is usually paper or cardboard or the combination of both. I thought the fast burning powder at target velocities would provide sufficient accuracy with low smoke and function and reliability.

if I am getting away from that with Clays/VV310....then I will stick to WSF which is suppose to be a good powder.

I am also trying to develop a practice load that will equal the same all around everything of a factory round for NRA Service Stock Auto. I dont have the funds or backing to shoot factory ammo....so I have to skimp.

I have access to once fired 9mil brass (in the area of 14K) a year through the police academy and I am going to line it up where it will be just one manufacture next year. (I have a plethora of manufactured once fired right now which other than military cases dont seem to be causing any issues)

not looking for scary speed rounds with fast burning powders. sorry if this post has gotten confusing.

I do have some 147 FMJ and will try that load (AA#&) for practice. thanks