About guns that are bought or sold as unfired .....

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I hear of a lot of guns that are bought/sold as "unfired". What do you look for as clues one way or another?

The following example is a 27-2 from 1978 that appears to have been fired exactly 3 times - every other chamber. Factory test fires correct?

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I think for the average gun buyer you just have to trust you eyes and general gun knowledge. Can the experienced faker fool a lot of us? I think yes. If buying online (GB) you somewhat have to have confidence in the seller and his reputation.
 
Yes. Test fired. Long time ago I believe all chambers were fired. So, yes, "unfired" except for the "test" fire. Nice 27!
 
When I was younger most of my new guns did not get home from the store unfired so I assumed that all the old men that advertised guns as unfired were lying. Now I have more guns than I have time for and although I did not buy them to preserve some may never get fired. Despite being more willing to believe guns are unfired, buying a gun across the internet I know I am likely dealing with an active reseller who either does not know if it was fired or is lying.

It is not hard to remove all trace of powder residue from stainless revolvers. I've never tried with nickel but I do not see why it would not be just as easy with nickel. However, magnum cartridges quickly dull the rear inside edge of the forcing cone. That's a finger test so you have to have the gun in hand. Usually that edge is sharp on a new barrel.

If you can not tell if a gun was fired and you are buying it to shoot then what difference does it make?

It is common for sellers to deny knowing that they are selling a defective gun by selling it as unfired. Most guns will out last several life times so it is safer to buy a gun that you've seen perform well at the range.
 
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I have heard of the three ring cylinder burn marks as being factory test fired and I've owned a few guns displaying just that. Those were all "NIB" with all of the signs of being new/unused. I think people go way overboard about being unfired... as all guns are tested which means they're fired. There's really no way to prove it and it shouldn't make much difference. It's important to learn the wear marks on revolvers, muzzle wear, turn line, burn marks, etc. If a gun is accompanied with its box and paperwork, unopened tools, etc and displays no signs of use then maybe it hasn't been fired since the factory but your gonna pay full price anyways. Buy the gun and not the story.
 
KalamazooKid,

You've brought up a topic near and dear to my heart. Even my friend at the pawn shop near here tries to push that "unfired" hoop-la. I don't let him get away with it. I've taken guns that I've fired in to show him and he swears they're "unfired." Blue, nickel, or stainless, I can clean 'em so you can't tell (unless they've been abused, obviously). I can clean 'em to a no-fired look and then go shoot three shots to give the appearance of "factory test firings." I'm not unique; anybody can do this.

In my holdings I have two revolvers that I believe probably weren't fired since they departed Springfield. At the same time, I don't really care. They are such neat pieces I'll probably fire them just because. And if I ever sell them I won't suggest they've "never been fired." In the end does it really make a difference?

I actually get more upset with the dummies on the auction sites that claim their Model 36 is a "first issue" just because it doesn't have a Dash.

Cheers,

Bob

Added: sometimes a blue gun will have the mark of a shell casing on the back of the frame where the firing pin strikes the primer. You can't clean that to make it go away. But I've seen NIB guns that display that characteristic from being "test fired" at the factory.
 
[...] Added: sometimes a blue gun will have the mark of a shell casing on the back of the frame where the firing pin strikes the primer. You can't clean that to make it go away. But I've seen NIB guns that display that characteristic from being "test fired" at the factory.
Are you sure? Visible bluing wear around the firing pin caused by the factory test firing is .... eh, beyond my experience. Perhaps that could happen if the revolver was fired more than normal testing while a problem with it was being corrected, but I suspect the revolver got fired between leaving the factory and the retail sale. Back before President Clinton put 80% of FFLs out of business that happened a lot. It is still common in gun stores that have an indoor range.

By the way, we've had long winded discussions on bluing wear around the firing pin hole. This was the consensus. Circles of roughly even bluing loss behind all chambers indicates long term holster carry. That wear is presumed to be from the cartridges moving slightly in the chambers while the revolver is holstered. One well worn circle around the firing pin hole indicates lots of firing but little holster carry. Remember, recoil moves the frame back away from all the cartridges except the one fired.
 
Are you sure? Visible bluing wear around the firing pin caused by the factory test firing is .... eh, beyond my experience. Perhaps that could happen if the revolver was fired more than normal testing while a problem with it was being corrected, but I suspect the revolver got fired between leaving the factory and the retail sale. Back before President Clinton put 80% of FFLs out of business that happened a lot. It is still common in gun stores that have an indoor range.

By the way, we've had long winded discussions on bluing wear around the firing pin hole. This was the consensus. Circles of roughly even bluing loss behind all chambers indicates long term holster carry. That wear is presumed to be from the cartridges moving slightly in the chambers while the revolver is holstered. One well worn circle around the firing pin hole indicates lots of firing but little holster carry. Remember, recoil moves the frame back away from all the cartridges except the one fired.

Yeah, I get your point.

I should have specified that airweight guns, sometimes, tend to show a print there from the factory. Most others, probably not so much.
 
I didn't want to get into the debate of whether you should shoot or not shoot an unfired gun. My pet peeve is that sellers tend to overuse the "unfired" or LNIB / NIB descriptors to increase perceived value. When I see a well defined cylinder ring on a "LNIB" gun on an auction site I have to scratch my head. Or if they say "with a few small handling marks" - I'm sorry but IT'S NOT LNIB!

OK, rant over. Happy Friday everyone!
 
I agree with the two bit Cowboy- see ads all the time with the 3 shot test rings touting that is the factory. Anybody can clean it up and then shoot it 3 times. If, under physical inspection, a piece is as good as it gets condition wise - does it really matter? If it has been fires a lot - can't hide that?
 
Being fired isn't an issue with me,but they must be flawless,aside from a turn line that they usually pick up regardless of being fired or not.I've also seen new,unfired guns at dealers that had picked up more handling wear than some that I have shot regularly for decades.
I've had plenty of unfired NIB guns of all vintages.Not that uncommon for dealers to have old inventory or gunnies to stash away unfired guns.
 
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If, under physical inspection, a piece is as good as it gets condition wise - does it really matter?

It matters when sellers use the verbiage to (wrongly) increase the sell price. I even see some sellers on the big auction site use boiler plate descriptions where all the guns they sell are "LNIB" when obviously they're not. But hey, if it doesn't matter to some no biggie.
 
I know that certain guns in my collection are unfired (outside of factory testing, of course) because I bought them brand spanking new and never shot them or let anyone else shoot them. Then I have my shooters which are mostly in near-perfect shape... but clearly not NIB to the well-trained eye. :)

Like so many others, I hate dealers trying to sell me a used gun (no matter how nice) as new-unfired-in-factory-box. To protect their scam, they usually phrase their pitch this way: "It looks like it is new-unfired-in-factory-box." :rolleyes:

Those words instantly make a flag pop up in my brain. Either it is truly unfired since it left the factory or it is just a very nice used gun. It can't be both... so which is it? :mad:
 
When I purchased most of my new guns (in the late 70's, 80's and early 90's) Revolvers were typically fired with 3 cartridges from every other Charge Hole. Any new out of the box gun was easily verified since only 3 Holes had the burn marks.

It is much harder to "read" an auto-loader for obvious reasons.

Since the last new Smith I bought was in 1994 I can not attest to what their procedure is today.

Unfortunately, deceitful sellers can sort of clean every other Charge Hole and that might fool some novices. While it is easy for me and most other "collectors" familiar with Smiths to tell if a revolver has been shot a lot, it is sometimes hard to tell if only a dozen or so shots have been fired and the gun "dolled-up" to sell.
 
Several years ago, I attended a local auction of a large number of firearms. There was a Smith 27-2 3 1/2" that was advertized as unfired. I could clearly see gray matter in all the cylinders, indicating to me that it had been fired quite a few shots from lead bullets, probably wadcutters. (I had seen that condition before).

I called one of the monitors on it and while I was using the restroom, the owner of the collection made an announcement stating that the gun was bought new and was unfired!

I bought the gun anyway, brought it home and cleaned lead out of each chamber, quite a bit of lead! I oiled it and put it away, I have not fired it yet. :-) I guess it is still unfired! :-)
 
I think that "baby boomers" are the first generation with a "large" number of gun collectors.

Not to say there weren't/aren't a large number of "sock drawer" guns out there ......mine range from a Colt pocket .25 still in it's box to a 98%+ Registered Magnum.


but IMHO prior to "us" not many folks bought multiple guns just to have them........ even the 'sock drawer" guns were bought with a purpose.....just never fired in anger or practice.
 
Unless you know you're the original owner, it's always a judgment call.
There are things to look for, but still, nothing is certain.
Far more important is the actual condition, not what is claimed by seller.
 
This is a good time and place to advocate a simple way to prevent your new blued S&W revolver from acquiring a turn line. I started doing this over 40 years ago. First, if the revolver has been handled much, even in the store, then it is already too late. That makes it more likely to be useful on special ordered revolvers than revolvers that were displayed in a store.

Remove the cylinder stop and dull its sharp top edges. Technically only dulling the edge the cylinder turns toward might work. Think in terms of removing only molecules, not a significant amount of steel. I use my old Case hard Arkansas knife sharpening stone. It is so fine it feels like a piece of glass.

A few years ago a gentleman was showing his Model 1955 .45 ACP to a lady that he'd arranged to meet at the local range. He'd advertised it for $1,000 on the bulletin board. She handed it to me to evaluate. It had no trace of a turn line so I told her it hadn't been fired much. He stood there silent until I handed it back then told here he'd fired 5,000 to 6,000 rounds through it in bullseye competition and had the score sheets to prove it. I had not felt the edges of its cylinder stop. He'd dulled them.

By the way, while a couple of conspicuously modified Model 1955s changed owners at the range for $800 that month the gentleman could not find a buyer for his excellent original condition Model 1955 for $1000. One of the ones that sold was Armaloy plated except for its replacement blued barrel and the other was very holster worn and obviously had been shot extensively. By the prevailing collector logic on this forum they were junkers but the buyers had seen their prior owners do well in matches with them and that's what mattered to them.
 
Check out how to buy a used pistol on youtube. I viewed one by
Larry Potterfield that was very informative.
 
This is a good time and place to advocate a simple way to prevent your new blued S&W revolver from acquiring a turn line. I started doing this over 40 years ago. First, if the revolver has been handled much, even in the store, then it is already too late. That makes it more likely to be useful on special ordered revolvers than revolvers that were displayed in a store.

Remove the cylinder stop and dull its sharp top edges. Technically only dulling the edge the cylinder turns toward might work. Think in terms of removing only molecules, not a significant amount of steel. I use my old Case hard Arkansas knife sharpening stone. It is so fine it feels like a piece of glass.

A few years ago a gentleman was showing his Model 1955 .45 ACP to a lady that he'd arranged to meet at the local range. He'd advertised it for $1,000 on the bulletin board. She handed it to me to evaluate. It had no trace of a turn line so I told her it hadn't been fired much. He stood there silent until I handed it back then told here he'd fired 5,000 to 6,000 rounds through it in bullseye competition and had the score sheets to prove it. I had not felt the edges of its cylinder stop. He'd dulled them.

By the way, while a couple of conspicuously modified Model 1955s changed owners at the range for $800 that month the gentleman could not find a buyer for his excellent original condition Model 1955 for $1000. One of the ones that sold was Armaloy plated except for its replacement blued barrel and the other was very holster worn and obviously had been shot extensively. By the prevailing collector logic on this forum they were junkers but the buyers had seen their prior owners do well in matches with them and that's what mattered to them.
Funny how turn lines are viewed today.When I first got into this game around 1982,a thin even turn line without breaks was how a quality revolver was judged.The old timers then would indicate how it should resemble a groove on a phonograph record with no breaks.Many people including myself would cycle the action until the line appeared.Even today I prefer to buy a fired gun with a precise line then an un fired one I cant handle in person. I have seen a few guns that had not been fired ,but had a heavy mark from the cylinder stop dragging from closing the cylinder in the same spot over the years.This happens when the cylinder is never rotated ,but allowed to close on the same spot over the years.This is what I would consider to be the revolver idiot mark on an otherwise preserved gun.I would say the best place to buy a quality Smith would be here on the forum or from the trusted sellers on Gunbroker who have a fan following around here.
 
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