Accessibility, time counts

[cheeseinwisconsin]

I thought it would be appropriate at this time in my life to throw my hat in the ring so to speak and offer my two cents worth of opinion regarding CCW. Having spent 33 years in law enforcement has given me numerous opportunities to watch, look and listen to others opinions regarding CCW and I thought that maybe, just maybe that I could impart some sound words of advice regarding what I learned over the years.

Accessibility , Time Counts
Although there are a variety of means and methods a person can employ to carry their concealable firearm on their person, the key factor of “accessibility” can be the determining factor of the out come.
How quickly an individual is able to gain access to their concealed firearm during a highly volatile and stressful situation and confront the threat depends on two factors. Number one is what physical position finds themselves at the time of the confrontation. Standing erect on your feet? Sitting in a car? Lying on the ground? Number two is the preferred method one carrying their firearm and what type of equipment utilized securing the firearm. IWB, OWB, POCKET, ANKLE, or SHOULDER among other ways are variety of ways to conceal carry with each method having both pluses and minuses.

Lets start with a situation where one is standing erect on their feet during an encounter. Pocket carry wins here with my vote. Concealed and readily available with a minimum of body mechanics involved during presentation of the firearm. Add to that I would venture to say most of us during our lives have developed muscle memory by repeatedly reaching into our pockets to retrieving a variety of items. So, under times of extreme stress this muscle memory imprinting could lend itself to a quicker and successful presentation of a concealed firearm. On the downside if one is seated, or lying prone, pocket carry can present some delay in retrieving the firearm. Not impossible, but definitely can slow things down. Now lets look at IWB, OWB and SHOULDER HOLSTER carry options , These methods require some additional measures for concealment purposes, i.e. coat, jacket,shirt,etc. Slower in retrieval of a concealed firearm but advantageous while seated, kneeling, or lying prone. Also presents the issue of telegraphing your moves to your adversary , i.e. sweeping back your jacket, lifting your shirt etc. which can be counterproductive and have an adverse impact on the outcome. Finally utilizing a ankle holster does provide a good measure of concealability and advantage of being readily available while lying prone, kneeling or sitting but like IWB, OWB and SHOULDER HOLSTER, rapid retrieval can be delayed.

Lastly, regardless on what method one utilizes to carry their concealable firearm, one thing that is imperative is your holster gear. It is somewhat perplexing to me why an individual would shell out a considerable amount of cash to purchase a quality firearm yet settle for a mediocre holster. Why would anyone purchase a holster that could invariably delay a rapid ,unimpeded draw of a firearm. It is just as important to have a good, operational, quality holster as the gun itself. Remember accessibility, time counts.

Cordially,
Robert Mika

P.S. Any feedback regarding this post from members of this forum would be greatly appreciated

 

[Protected One]

You missed a factor. The clothing one is wearing. Someone carrying at say 5:00 beneath an untucked shirt as a cover garment would have little to no trouble accessing their firearm.
That same person, carrying the same way and wearing a coat in cold weather would have considerably more difficulty accessing their firearm.

 

[bigggbbruce]

I choose AIWB standing in a relaxed state, my thumb is touching the gun, can't get much closer unless I'm pulling it out.

 

[Jessie]

I’d sure like to carry AIWB since it’s accessible in about any position other than lying on your belly, and then it’s probably too late anyways.
Unfortunately, I haven’t found the right holster, gun or physique to make it comfortable yet.
I believe the belly is the problem and I’m working on that.
I agree that with the right gun and holster pocket carry works well except when sitting.

 

[tops]

In my stupid opinion I think pocket carry is hard to beat for self defense. In crowds and close places it's easy to move around with my hand in my pocket and holding my gun. From what I understand many self defense situations are fast and up close. What many people use for a bug is my main gun. Larry

 

[keith44spl]

Back in the summer, Iggy and I was kicking around the idee of a 'half break front' holster for
advancing the ease of draw from the seated position.
One that didn't wrench the rotator cuff and was secure. It turned out to be fast too boot.

This is one of the proto types, I've been carrying this one for
several months now and find it to be all we had hoped for.

And no, this is not an advertisement for sales of the above.
This is just an experimental prototype of holster. Pat. Pending

.

 

[bigggbbruce]

I’d sure like to carry AIWB since it’s accessible in about any position other than lying on your belly, and then it’s probably too late anyways.
Unfortunately, I haven’t found the right holster, gun or physique to make it comfortable yet.
I believe the belly is the problem and I’m working on that.
I agree that with the right gun and holster pocket carry works well except when sitting.

I use a cheap little holster, it fits many types of guns, revolver or auto.

The biggest problem I have is when I carry my 5" 1911. In the mentioned holster it is kind of painful to squat down. The 4" is fine.

I have another holster that lifts it that painful inch.. but you need bulky clothes to cover better.

Interesting mention is that over the years my gut has developed a recess that fits the gun and makes it real comfortable.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Dress around the gun is a often quoted rule of thumb. While I generally agree.......

I've never been able to pocket carry in jeans....for me it's real slow going digging a J-frame out from a Wrangler pocket!......

Not to mention all my pockets are spoken for.....Keys, money clip, AAA flashlight and Wallet.


My EDC guns are generally one of five...... mostly a 3913 but also could be a PC Shorty-9 (690x) or Beretta 92 Compact..... all have the same operating controls...... or in a revolver a 3" 66 or 3" 60-10 again the same. Due to their size and weight none of these are conducive to pocket carry........ add at least one reload.

Carried in a Milt Sparks Summer Special IWB at 4 O'clock..... 95% of the time.


Just got back from a walk in one of the County Parks.... horizontal Miami Vice shoulder holster with a Beretta 92 Compact and 2 spare 18rd mags for balance (50 rounds total )..... just have to unzip my jacket half way to quickly and easily access the gun.

Long drives in the country... trips to the cabin..... will find me going to a cross draw.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Yup, what Dave came up with works purty slick.

I been carryin' my old Defender in this one for a couple of months now and it's just what we were aimin' for.
The muzzle of the gun clears the holster just below belt level and it's quick.

I have a couple similar (I think) custom holsters ........ the front of the holster is cut to just below the ejection port which is even with the bottom of the belt.

Snubby mine are for Smith 915s and 5906s with 4 inch barrel/slides.....

 

[snubbyfan]

For me it's:

I've tried different types of holsters including a thumb break and while practicing, I've fumbled with a thumb break. My current favorite holster's an open top with molded retention.


I have an IWB but I haven't tried wearing it anywhere but around the house.

 

[snubbyfan]

Back in the summer, Iggy and I was kicking around the idee of a 'half break front' holster for
advancing the ease of draw from the seated position.
One that didn't wrench the rotator cuff and was secure. It turned out to be fast too boot.

This is one of the proto types, I've been carrying this one for
several months now and find it to be all we had hoped for.

And no, this is not an advertisement for sales of the above.

.

Hmm...
I wonder how something like that'd work for a snubby.

 

[keith44spl]

Hmm...
I wonder how something like that'd work for a snubby.

Ah, probably not a good design for a snubby.....

It was designed around the Colt Defender 3"....

I personally carry a Colt LTW Commander 4 1/4"

So, with a revolver it would need some really good retention around the cylinder & frame,

I'd say.


.

 

[BAM-BAM]

I have a couple similar (I think) custom holsters ........ the front of the holster is cut to just below the ejection port which is even with the bottom of the belt.

Snubby mine are for Smith 915s and 5906s with 4 inch barrel/slides.....

Don't think it would work with a short barreled revolver...............

 

[snubbyfan]

Ah, probably not a good design for a snubby.....

It was designed around the Colt Defender 3"....

I personally carry a Colt LTW Commander 4 1/4"

So, with a revolver it would need some really good retention around the cylinder & frame,

I'd say.


.

Don't think it would work with a short barreled revolver...............

Kinda sounds like a good excuse to go gun shopping.....

 

[ContinentalOp]

I've never been able to pocket carry in jeans....for me it's real slow going digging a J-frame out from a Wrangler pocket!......

Not to mention all my pockets are spoken for.

These are a couple of reasons I rarely pocket carry my snub. In my own experiments, drawing from a pocket only beats my usual carry, IWB under an untucked shirt, if my hand is already on my gun. This is aside from the difficulty in drawing from the pocket while sitting or moving.

 

[ContinentalOp]

It seems like the solution is obvious: Carry three guns! One on the belt, IWB or OWB; one in the pocket to discreetly have your hand on the gun when in "Condition Orange" situations; and one on the ankle when sitting, kneeling, lying down, etc.

You're welcome.





*FWIW, I think this is the approach Jim Cirillo used.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I got a couple of these for different pistols. All I’ve worn for a couple years . . .

 

[Stevens]

How about a vest, one with deep "hand warmer" type zip pockets. Keep your gun in there. In a store or restaurant zip them up no one can see what's in there. Walking out to your car unzip and slip your hand in and there it is, get into a real bind pull it out or if need be and close enough shoot through the cloth. I don't own a vest, they aren't common here except in winter, but I the like the idea, maybe a midweight for cool weather and a light weight for summer. Most I see in stores have too small slit pockets maybe an off the rack would have to be modified. This would also probably solve the sweat/rust issues from carrying close to body in summer.
I know there is a "shoot me first, I'm carrying" issue with vest wearing but maybe the bad guys don't know about that or were going to shoot anyway.
Steve W

 

[Old TexMex]

Back in the summer, Iggy and I was kicking around the idee of a 'half break front' holster for
advancing the ease of draw from the seated position.
One that didn't wrench the rotator cuff and was secure. It turned out to be fast too boot.

This is one of the proto types, I've been carrying this one for
several months now and find it to be all we had hoped for.

And no, this is not an advertisement for sales of the above.

.

Brilliant! Looks like y’all nailed it.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Agree with OP. But we need to concentrate on what goes on between the ears too.

 

[CB3]

OP’s point, I believe, was that where and how we choose to carry concealed should take into account accessibility and speed. He wanted to discuss pocket carry in particular, or other methods.

The overarching reality of a fight where you need to defend yourself with a gun is that it is most often unexpected, fast, and you start on defense rather than offense. You do not control the initiation of such a fight.

The first thing I am most naturally and likely to do if suddenly and violently attacked is to move aggressively as part of countering the attack. I will need my hands and arms as free as possible.

So, concerning pocket carry as the primary choice for CCW, I doubt I would be walking around all the time with my hand in my pocket resting on a handgun. When attacked by surprise, I do not believe while moving I would be able to thrust my hand into my pants pocket, acquire a firing grip and withdraw a handgun. I cannot move well or fast with one hand down in a pocket. An opponent can easily lock up the pocket arm preventing the draw.

I know people think they can do it. I’d like to see some video of how (quickly) in a good force-on-force training scenario one could get a pocket-carried gun on target, even without contact with the aggressor but certainly not while in contact with an aggressor.

Standing still, maybe. Hand on the gun already, maybe. Seated? No. Choked from behind. No. Jumping/running? No. With the offside hand if the hand nearest the pocket is hurt or occupied? No. During any kind of a grappling struggle? No. Tying up your dominant hand and arm to thrust it down into a pocket is not my idea of fighting. It is slow.

As well, pocket carry limits the size and capacity (even caliber, Oh My!) of the gun.

That is just too many negatives for me to consider pocket carry as my preferred method of concealed carry. Also, can’t help but mention carrying a pound or more deep in a front pants pocket just doesn’t sound at all comfortable. Perhaps with very special pants with very special pockets, but not with what I buy as normal pants with pockets. I assume lightweight pocket material would also wear rather quickly, but I don’t know, because to be honest I have never tried it. I don’t see any reason to. There are so many other good options.

This is just my opinion and I don’t mean to offend, but it seems to be a rather casual, lazy and potentially ineffective way to carry compared to other choices.

Clearing a covering garment to access a (inside the) waist-mounted handgun is not a great challenge. It is also not slow as it occurs while accessing the gun. The shorter the distance the firing hand and then the gun have to travel to get into firing position, the quicker the draw. Grip above the waist has to be faster than grip down in a pocket. Gun toward the front has to be faster than gun toward the back or out of a pocket well below the waist (distance).

Having analyzed these limitations, I choose to carry a full sized 17+1 round pistol in the appendix position. It’s not for everyone, I know. However, for me it comes the closest to fulfilling all these requirements:

Well concealed
Secure
Accessible by either hand
Accessible when running, seated, grappling, on your back
Fast access
Fast on target
Competent size (easier to shoot under stress)
Competent caliber
Good capacity
Can be a good hammer (most pocket pistols, not so much)
Quick, competent reload with a spare hi-cap mag also carried IWB (NOT in a pocket).

With a quality holster, a little padding, and a good belt it is all-day comfortable for me, but I understand not for everyone.

Please carry the way you want, but please also evaluate the reality that the fight is going to be unpredictable and you will likely be starting from behind the attack curve. You should maximize every potential advantage, not compromise effectiveness for “easy” or for the false expectation that the fight will be like target shooting paper at the range.

 

[fredj338]

I agree on quality holster/belt rig for carry. Pocket carry, I just dont see it as rapid. How fast can you deliver a first shot while moving off the X, say 3y? AIWB is probably fastest by a hair, then 3:30-4. When you consider other positons, pocket carry is a distant last imo.

 

[BAM-BAM]

I've got a vest for every season. A vest on a stove up old cowboy don't draw much attention in Wyoming.

I use them as a cover garment for OWB carry.

Me too ..... thou those I wear in the Burbs of the Burgh are a bit more old "Yuppie" than old cowboy!

I've discovered; late fall to spring a light weight fleece vest over a oxford cloth shirt is good to go ( got 3 or 4 in blues and green)........ thou I must admit to going Tacticoool in the summer months with "Shoot me first" photographer vests.

 

[Muss Muggins]

In all fairness, the OP makes and sells pocket holsters . . .

OP’s point, I believe, was that where and how we choose to carry concealed should take into account accessibility and speed. He wanted to discuss pocket carry in particular, or other methods.

 

[Ziggy2525]

I agree on quality holster/belt rig for carry. Pocket carry, I just dont see it as rapid. How fast can you deliver a first shot while moving off the X, say 3y? AIWB is probably fastest by a hair, then 3:30-4. When you consider other positons, pocket carry is a distant last imo.

I don’t think I’ve seen any type of stats or videos where how people carried (pocket, ankle, OWB, IWB) has made a difference in a successful self defense encounter by a civilian ccw.

The #1 factor seems to be having a loaded firearm on them or very closeby.

The #2 factor seems to be the willingness to use the weapon combined with a mindset not to be victim.

The #3 factor seems to be having a round in the chamber and not having to fumble with controls. Point and shoot.

For all the discussion about needing a 1.x second draw, in the stories and videos I’ve seen posted of civilian self defense encounters (not LEO encounters), I don’t recall any where draw times were a factor.

 

[CB3]

I don’t think I’ve seen any type of stats or videos where how people carried (pocket, ankle, OWB, IWB) has made a difference in a successful self defense encounter by a civilian ccw.

I think maybe you haven’t seen enough videos or participated in enough training to make a statement like this.

Your other points are valid, but suggesting that speed of going from concealment to effective shots on target is not a primary factor in civilian self defense is, uh, counterintuitive at least.

Watch “Law of Self Defense” and the analyses of John Correa and you will see many instances where speed of access was either a fight winning or losing element. Not always, of course, but where fractions of a second count, there is no disadvantage to speed.

Like so many other CC decisions, it is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

 

[Ziggy2525]

I think maybe you haven’t seen enough videos or participated in enough training to make a statement like this.

Your other points are valid, but suggesting that speed of going from concealment to effective shots on target is not a primary factor in civilian self defense is, uh, counterintuitive at least.

Watch “Law of Self Defense” and the analyses of John Correa and you will see many instances where speed of access was either a fight winning or losing element. Not always, of course, but where fractions of a second count, there is no disadvantage to speed.

Like so many other CC decisions, it is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

I try to take at least a couple training courses each year. In the past few years one of the two each year has been some type of force on force course. I try to catch each of the daily Correia videos and also some of Branca's Wednesday "Law of Self Defense" videos when they seem applicable.

I agree there's no disadvantage to speed as long as you maintain accuracy. I also agree in a civilian encounter, it seems counter intuitive that draw speed isn't primary. But...being counter intuitive doesn't make it untrue. There's lots of things in life that are counter intuitive.

If you look at Correia's videos of successful and unsuccessful civilian self-defense encounters (not the one with LEO's), presentation speed is not a factor. Lack of situational awareness, poor skills with their firearms, and weak responses seem to be the primary issue in bad outcomes for the self defender.

If you have some links to civilian self-defense videos where presentation speed caused the encounter to be lost, you should post them. It would be really informative.

 

[Erich]

In all fairness, the OP makes and sells pocket holsters . . .

The esteemed Mr. Mika (whom I'm glad to see posting) also makes and sells IWB holsters (I own a few of his - was wearing one just yesterday!), of course.

 

[Erich]

I still use my now-two-decade-old Mika pocket holster more than any other for J-/D-frames and equivalents.


Here's a Mika IWB in use:

 

[Rudi]

We are not 2 cowboys standing in the street waiting to see who can slap leather fastest. Situational awareness is so important. Pay attention! Much important information in this thread, yep. But being ready before drawing a weapon is key, to my way of thinking. Wyatt Earp said it was better to be a bit more accurate than a bit too fast.