Accuracy is coming: Apex M&P Barrels

[TacticalReload]

It appears that the next generation of military sidearms are going to look a lot like a Glock 19.

It would probably make the most sense given what is out there right now if they really felt the need to give up on the M9. However, if we are talking specifically about the MHS trials, it doesn't fit the criteria in many ways (not the least of which is the "M" in MHS). I'm not sure how they would justify spending massive amounts of tax payer dollars to switch from the M9 to the Glock... the guns, holsters, training, infrastructure, etc, etc, etc... it would be a huge waste of our money considering how small of a role handguns play in the day-to-day operations of Big Army personnel.

And before people get their panties in a bunch about needing to address the reliability issues with the M9 (and I know this is going to sound blasphemous to the Glock fanboys out there), I would bet that if Glocks were chosen to replace the Berettas and they got treated to the same lack of routine maintenance and care (ie, replacing parts -- mainly springs and magazines) for as long as the M9 has, you'd start to see stories creeping out about reliability issues with the Glocks as well.

But we have now strayed pretty far off the topic of this thread.

 

[53herbie]

Typically, the shorter barrels and slides will shoot more consistently in almost all polymer, striker fired pistols.If you get a chance to talk to Julie Golob or Dave Sevigny at a match, they will most likely agree as they both have seen this phenomenon when they were shooting for Team Glock.

The main reason is that the bullet has a greater chance of exiting the barrel before barrel destabilization can take its toll (we are talking 9c, G26/G27 etc.).
The longer the barrel, the longer the time the bullet is in the barrel. If the system has too short of a dwell time then the trajectory of the bullet will have greater variability because the axis of the bore is pointed in slightly different directions.

I did some googling looking for other input on optimal barrel length for auto pistols... did not find anything where others have sorted this. It makes a lot of sense to me.

This seems to say for a given round, there is some maximal or optimal barrel length that allows the bullet to clear the barrel before the barrel destabilizes.

 

[TacticalReload]

By barrel destabilization, he's talking about how the M&P barrel unlocks earlier than a lot of other designs (what he is referring to when he talks about dwell time). Therefore, the M&P barrel "destabilizes" very quickly since it come unlocked from the slide very quickly and therefore it starts having a lot of potential movement of the barrel very quickly. The shorter barrels means that the time the bullet spends in the barrel is a lot lower than with a longer barrel.

This phenomenon is not specific to a "given round" so much as it is a factor of a particular design. A 9mm bullet traveling at 1200 fps in a Glock 17 vs the same bullet at the same speed in an M&P9FS vs the same bullet at the same speed in a VP9 is going to see different levels of effect from the barrel destabilization because they all start destabilizing at different times.

 

[53herbie]

By barrel destabilization, he's talking about how the M&P barrel unlocks earlier than a lot of other designs (what he is referring to when he talks about dwell time). Therefore, the M&P barrel "destabilizes" very quickly since it come unlocked from the slide very quickly and therefore it starts having a lot of potential movement of the barrel very quickly. The shorter barrels means that the time the bullet spends in the barrel is a lot lower than with a longer barrel.

This phenomenon is not specific to a "given round" so much as it is a factor of a particular design. A 9mm bullet traveling at 1200 fps in a Glock 17 vs the same bullet at the same speed in an M&P9FS vs the same bullet at the same speed in a VP9 is going to see different levels of effect from the barrel destabilization because they all start destabilizing at different times.

Certainly it's design specific, but isn't dwell time limited based on the how much recoil a given round generates? I'm thinking it takes more oomph to cycle with a longer dwell time.

 

[TacticalReload]

Watch Randy's youtube video about the Apex barrels. I understand the confusion here... when I have heard about dwell time previous to the Apex barrel and the M&P, it was in the context mostly of the AR15. Here it is referring to the amount of time that the high pressure gas is being directed back to cycle the action and it occurs between the time the bullet passes the gas port (effectively "turning on the pressure") and the time that the bullet leaves the barrel (effectively "turning down the pressure" since it now can escape out of the muzzle). If the gas port is placed too close to the muzzle, the dwell time is too short to cycle the gun effectively.

What you're interpreting as "dwell time" is probably the time between the ignition of the round and the cycling of the slide, where nothing happens to the barrel or slide. Am I correct? Regardless, what Randy means when he talks of dwell time is the time between the ignition of the round and the point where the barrel unlocks from the slide. On the stock M&P, the slide moves back the teeniest amount and the barrel is already locking, meaning it is loose and free to flop around. The Apex barrel changes the geometry of the lugs so the barrel rides back with the lugs contacting the locking block for a substantially longer distance (and period of time, ie "dwell time") before unlocking from the slide and tilting or moving free. The whole upper moves as a unit for a much longer time with the Apex barrel than with the factory barrel. IMO, this is what corrects the very poor accuracy of some guns (along with tightening the slide-to-barrel fit).

 

[53herbie]

Watch Randy's youtube video about the Apex barrels. I understand the confusion here... when I have heard about dwell time previous to the Apex barrel and the M&P, it was in the context mostly of the AR15. Here it is referring to the amount of time that the high pressure gas is being directed back to cycle the action and it occurs between the time the bullet passes the gas port (effectively "turning on the pressure") and the time that the bullet leaves the barrel (effectively "turning down the pressure" since it now can escape out of the muzzle). If the gas port is placed too close to the muzzle, the dwell time is too short to cycle the gun effectively.

What you're interpreting as "dwell time" is probably the time between the ignition of the round and the cycling of the slide, where nothing happens to the barrel or slide. Am I correct? Regardless, what Randy means when he talks of dwell time is the time between the ignition of the round and the point where the barrel unlocks from the slide. On the stock M&P, the slide moves back the teeniest amount and the barrel is already locking, meaning it is loose and free to flop around. The Apex barrel changes the geometry of the lugs so the barrel rides back with the lugs contacting the locking block for a substantially longer distance (and period of time, ie "dwell time") before unlocking from the slide and tilting or moving free. The whole upper moves as a unit for a much longer time with the Apex barrel than with the factory barrel. IMO, this is what corrects the very poor accuracy of some guns (along with tightening the slide-to-barrel fit).

I'm thinking of dwell time the same way and I'm thinking the change in the geometry of the lugs that gives a longer dwell time takes a bit more power to cycle. Does that make sense?

 

[TacticalReload]

It sounds reasonable, but it's not really the case to any significant degree. The slide is held in place by the recoil spring's tension. When properly fitted, the Apex barrel is tighter all around, including putting downward pressure on the locking block, which the factory slide doesn't do. However, it doesn't take much more oomph to get the slide on its way backward during the firing sequence. This is especially true when the barrel starts to wear in over the first few hundred rounds.

In general, the barrel remains locked into the slide for longer because the lower lug rides on the locking block, preventing the barrel from dropping down and coming unlocked. On the factory barrel, these areas don't interact so the barrel is free to start dropping down right away. You are correct in that the contact that the Apex barrel makes is added friction, which in theory probably makes it slightly harder for the slide to move rearward. But I think that a vast, vast majority of the force countering the slide action in either case is purely from the force needed to compress the recoil spring.

The dwell time increase is not because the Apex barrel makes everything lock up so tight that it takes a greater amount of force to overcome the friction holding it locked (and therefore greater amount of time) to unlock the barrel. When the barrel is newly fitted and done so in the recommended tight manner, there is a little hitch at the very end of chambering a round where the lug's pad has to slip onto the locking block. But this wears away after a couple of shooting sessions... and just feeling the force it takes to retract the slide by hand, it's not a significant difference over stock.

It's really hard to describe what I'm saying without diagrams / pictures... and even then, it's hard to get the workings of it explained without actually showing someone in person what happens. Basically, the slide and Apex barrel move back as a single unit for a fraction of an inch and then the barrel starts to drop. The slide and factory barrel don't really move back hardly at all before the barrel starts to drop. I imagine the slide begins to move back at about the same time after ignition in both cases and do so at roughly the same speed.

If that was the case, you could simply achieve the same effect by putting in an extra, extra heavy recoil spring. (which some people have tried with varying degrees of success) However, you can only go so heavy before your gun won't cycle fully.

 

[rbox1064]

Just dropped by this thread and still a little disgusted about my own experience. I have the PPQ and it's without a doubt the best 9mm poly I have ever owned. I would have loved to have my M&P 9mm FS with similar accuracy and trigger as the PPQ and could have gotten there with an Apex overhaul.

My primary beef with S&W is that smug pompous sounding form letter in which they tell you that their pistol isn't the problem. If they were at all at ease with those statements they would back up their trial testing of returned pistols. However can anyone point to their test they run when I mailed my pistol back?

I mean, what ammo did they use? Shooting from bag/vice? What distance? How many rnds? Got any pictures of these "non-problematic" pistol targets? What is acceptable accuracy for a 9mm M&P?

No answers, just "no problem found with your pistol" even though we weren't able to shoot a 10" pattern at 10yrds... lol

No sir, I'll not own any company's products with that attitude!

 

[agksimon]

Regardless of the science behind the accuracy (or lack thereof), my M&P 9 Compact, Pro 9 and Shield 9 have always sucked in this department. I had to fit an Apex barrel and trigger kit ($300) into the Pro to get acceptable accuracy out of it. I traded the Compact 9 toward a Walther PPS M2 that out of the box, has a far better trigger and is far more accurate than any of the M&P's. It shoots 2.5-3 inch benched 25 yard groups, which is almost as good as my Apex'd Pro.
I will never buy another S&W, unless they clean up their act.

 

[Srruger762]

My apex MP9 Performance Pro shoot 1.5" or less groups all day long at 25 yards. Before I turned it into a custom apex it shot 3.5" groups or less.
Shot again two days ago, still working like a dream with over 1000 rounds threw it.

 

[Magnumite]

The M&P Pro9 I've is one of the most inaccurate firearms I have ever owned. This model pistol is a huge black eye for S&W. Bought new, shot 5.5" low, couldn't group tighter than 9"...yes 9" at 25 yards. A Ruger P85 I had years back is three times the pistol this M&P Pro9 is. I called Smith and Wesson and was basically told to forget any factory repairs. Not the same company who warrantied my DX revolver years back.
I've built 1911's and don't have problems shooting good groups, so I know it is the gun. After close investigation the M&P taught me to distrust striker fired pistols and many shooters think accuracy is keeping all shots on a full size humanoid targets at 10 yards. I determined lock time was the issue, altered the slide stop for longer unlocking travel, cleaned up the roughness in the frame tunnel. Even lightened the striker spring so the slide would get closer to closing fully. Retested it with three brands and different bullet weights. 7" carefully fired groups...best accuracy. Let it get hot and all bets are off. I was ready to drill and install a ball and detent into the locking block and barrel as a last attempt before selling it. Never mind the atrocious action it was produced with. For all the negatives, I like how the pistol handles, fires and tracks...says alot coming from a died in the wool steel frame guy. That is the ONLY reason I haven't sold it.

Didn't try any other after market barrels because nothing was different about them. Just read info on the Apex and feel it is a winner. The sight of lockup areas in a catalogue picture has prompted me to check it out closer. I'll be trying this barrel...

 

[Luis Stange]

Adding my $.02.

Replaced factory barrels (recent manufacture, two dimples) in two guns with Apex 5" semi-drop in. Results:

• M&P9Pro C.O.R.E.: before 4.94", after 3.21".

• M&P9Pro: before 4.87", after 3.36".

Those are averages of 8 groups 10 shots each, excluding worst shot in each group, at 25 yards, unsupported.

Fitting in C.O.R.E. was somewhat tricky. Took me a while to realize that the barrel does not go completely up because it binds at the muzzle. I think this phenomenon is called "springing". Once I figured that part out, the rest was easy.

With factory barrels, both 9Pro and C.O.R.E. without a red dot shoot better with 115 or 124 grain bullets. 147 grain goes high, and vertical dispersion is noticeably larger. C.O.R.E. with a red dot installed shoots 147 grains just fine, probably because the additional mass attached to the slide causes the barrel to unlock later. With Apex, all bullet weights shoot the same in both guns.

No stoppages of any kind so far (about 400 rounds).

 

[TAC]

Never saw a pistol barrel that didn't shoot straight!

 

[TacticalReload]

Never saw a pistol barrel that didn't shoot straight!

What exactly does this mean? That every single bullet out of every single pistol you've ever shot had fired out like a laser and grouped into a single hole?

 

[TAC]

What exactly does this mean? That every single bullet out of every single pistol you've ever shot had fired out like a laser and grouped into a single hole?

To begin with, I didn't say "I" did that.

Most factory standard barrels, especially on modern day pistols, are capable of shooting very straight.

 

[B585]

Update: ~1200 rounds through my Apex. ZERO malfunctions. No appreciable loss of accuracy since I first installed it. I say no appreciable loss of accuracy because I haven't shot off of a bag for several hundred rounds. Shooting freehand, I am still hitting alphas at all ranges as long as I do my part.

 

[TacticalReload]

To begin with, I didn't say "I" did that.

Most factory standard barrels, especially on modern day pistols, are capable of shooting very straight.

The barrels themselves are fine. It's when you design the pistol around them that funny things sometimes start to happen.

 

[Heyman]

I've been wanting to write up a proper review, but can't seem to find the time to do it. I've had ZERO malfunctions in the 1k ish rounds fired through the Apex Barrel. I have yet to bench it, but can without a doubt say the accuracy is head and shoulders better than the Factory Barrel.

With the Factory barrel, I literally couldn't hit a 12 inch plate from 25 yards. With the Apex barrel, I can't miss it. I also can't miss the plate from 50 yards with the Apex barrel. When pushed out to 75 yards, I'm able to hit the plate at about a 70% rate. The misses, I know are my fault, and not the barrels. To say I'm happy with the barrel would be an understatement. I used to always wonder why I shot other people's Glocks, HK's, Sigs, etc better than my own guns. Now I know. If you have a question about your M&P's accuracy, get one of these barrels. It has transformed my pistol. Of course, you'll still have to do your part, but at least you'll finally be able to know if it's you or the gun.

 

[Randy Lee]

I'm just happy to hear that people are having good luck with our barrels.
The M&P has a lot of check marks in the "Plus column". It just needed a few tweaks here and there to make it into an exceptionally accurate pistol.
No-one thought the gun was capable of shooting sub 1" groups at 50 yards, yet there are people doing just that.

 

[Heyman]

I'm just happy to hear that people are having good luck with our barrels.
The M&P has a lot of check marks in the "Plus column". It just needed a few tweaks here and there to make it into an exceptionally accurate pistol.
No-one thought the gun was capable of shooting sub 1" groups at 50 yards, yet there are people doing just that.

Not only am I have great success with the barrel, your customer service was impeccable, and literally second to none. I've been using Apex products ever since I bought my first M&P pistol back in 2010. I needed some help with the Apex barrel, and Randy went above and beyond to make me happy. I can't speak highly enough of him and his company. Randy, you are a humble gentleman with a wealth of knowledge I can only dream of. M&P owners sure are lucky you're around!

 

[B Carlson]

Nothing new to add to what has already been posted about the Apex 5" barrel, but adding weight to how well it worked.

This is a 3 month old Performance Center 5", CORE, ported.

I too went through wondering why I couldn't call my shots with my M&P 9L. I finally benched it next to my VP9, and found it wasn't me, with different bullet weights. I was getting 10" groups with the M&P at 25 yrds, 4" with the VP9. Both have Trijicon RM07's.

I got the Apex SDI, spent 45 min. filing it, and now have 3" groups at 25 yrds. I also have the Apex forward set flat trigger in it, and the lighter trigger springs in my VP9.

I can't wait for Randy to make a threaded barrel so I can put a compensator on it. I can't focus on the front sight (old eyes), thus the RMR. Puts me in USPSA open, so I might as well put the compensator on it to even the odds.

I was very angry when I found how bad the factory accuracy was, and would have definitely sold it if it wasn't for Randy's work.

 

[Srruger762]

Was at the range again yesterday with the guys we tried to do a little speed shooting. pic is 25yards with my Apex M&P Pro 9, loaded a 17 round clip and shoot as fast as I could and tried to keep good control and groups. All 17 rounds hit.

Randy when's the threaded barral (gunsmith version) coming out?

 

[Holmes375]

Was at the range again yesterday with the guys we tried to do a little speed shooting. pic is 25yards with my Apex M&P Pro 9, loaded a 17 round clip and shoot as fast as I could and tried to keep good control and groups. All 17 rounds hit.

Randy when's the threaded barral (gunsmith version) coming out?

That would be DRT Nice job of it.

 

[jerdebson]

I too am waiting for the threaded gunsmith version, 4.25" here.

 

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

I have a 1911, 45 and a Ruger 22/45, that will benchrest 1+ inch groups at 25 yards, but my M&P Pro 9 will only get 4-5 inch groups at that distance, no matter what bullet weight I use. Still think it's the hand?
When I shoot IDPA matches and I get an extra point down, because the shot goes just outside of the perforation, I can't help but wonder if it was me or the gun. If the gun was capable of better groups, I would have my answer. I for one will get the barrel and install it, as soon as it's available.

Really apples and oranges. MUCH easier to shoot a 1911 or 22/45 accurately than it is a striker fired pistol. But 4-5" is pretty bad and I imagine the gun's accuracy could be a factor.

 

[Randy Lee]

Was at the range again yesterday with the guys we tried to do a little speed shooting. pic is 25yards with my Apex M&P Pro 9, loaded a 17 round clip and shoot as fast as I could and tried to keep good control and groups. All 17 rounds hit.

Randy when's the threaded barral (gunsmith version) coming out?

We are beginning our move out of CA, so hopefully we will have some news on threaded barrels before Christmas.

 

[Shield9mm]

I don't have any experience with apex barrels but they are pretty much new in the market and they cost more than the storm lake which already have good reputation just saying, maybe anyone that have tried both can give some input are they better?

 

[Holmes375]

I'd choose Apex every day as they have invested so much in the M&P pistols and they have interacted with the M&P community in a very positive manner.

Nothing against Storm Lake but Apex is like a vested partner with we M&P enthusiasts.

 

[Bkreutz]

We are beginning our move out of CA, so hopefully we will have some news on threaded barrels before Christmas.

I'm turning blue.

 

[Angus46]

I purchased a 4.25" ported M and P performance center CORE. I was able to do a little polishing on the trigger to get it where I want it. However, shooting it is a huge disappointment. With almost 1000.0 into it for extra mags, holster and optic to only get about 2" groups at 7 yards regardless of the ammo is pathetic. Seems to generally throw 2 out of every 5 shots to open up the group. I have looked at the barrel it's a single dimple and does show quite a bit of play when locked up. What a sad day. I thought spending that much for a "performance center" gun would be ready to go. Sad day when you compair it to the fit and function of my dad's old model 41 and my no dash 686.

So it looks like I need the Apex barrel to get what I want out of it. Which at this point I'm willing to do. However, I do like the porting. (One of the reasons I bought it). Randy will your company eventually offer a barrel that will match the ports already cut into the slide? If so any idea when it may be available. At this point really can't be all that competitive with this level of accuracy.