Thanks for the response sir. What do you think about the little bit of side to side wiggle I have? I called Apex, and the lady who answered the phone told me that if it has side to side wiggle, it means I took too much off of the hood length. Don't know how accurate that is. Mary is the person I spoke to.
Accuracy is coming: Apex M&P Barrels
- Thread starter Llando88
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Thanks for the response sir. What do you think about the little bit of side to side wiggle I have? I called Apex, and the lady who answered the phone told me that if it has side to side wiggle, it means I took too much off of the hood length. Don't know how accurate that is. Mary is the person I spoke to.
Randy Lee
Member
If the side to side play is present when the gun is in battery, then it is most likely that too much material was taken off the bottom fitting pad.
If you are testing the side to side play when the slide is off the frame, then that is normal. The upward forces of the locking block contacting the fitting pad when the gun is in battery is what contributes to the barrel lock up and centering of the barrel.
The side to side wiggle is when the slide is off the frame. How can I test this with the slide on the frame? Are you talking about the whole slide moving side to side when it's on the frame, or just the barrel when the slide is on the frame? If the latter, how do I test this? There is definitely some side to side wiggle of the frame when it's in full battery. I only took off one stroke of material from the bottom pad, and did it very lightly. I only did so b/c I couldn't get the slide on unless I took some material off. But it was literally one light stroke.
PS. Thank you for answering all of my questions both here in this thread and via pm. Your customer service is second to none and makes me feel better about all of my Apex purchases in the past, present, and future.
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Randy Lee
Member
Hi All,
I think I posted this before, but the reason our barrels provide better accuracy is that we designed the bottom lug geometry to increase dwell time. Even if you cut the hood too short (say .010"), the barrel will still shoot 1.5" @ 25 yards all day long. This is because the contact between the botom lug and the locking block maintains the rear lock up while the muzzle end remains firmly pressed against the bottom cut in the slide.
If you remove too much off the fitting pad on the bottom, then that is where you will see accuracy degrade.
I think I posted this before, but the reason our barrels provide better accuracy is that we designed the bottom lug geometry to increase dwell time. Even if you cut the hood too short (say .010"), the barrel will still shoot 1.5" @ 25 yards all day long. This is because the contact between the botom lug and the locking block maintains the rear lock up while the muzzle end remains firmly pressed against the bottom cut in the slide.
If you remove too much off the fitting pad on the bottom, then that is where you will see accuracy degrade.
I should be fine then! Whew! There are still some high spots on the bottom fitting pad, so I didn't take too much off. I just sucked last night. Thanks again sir for your patience in answering all of my questions. I can't wait to bench rest this and see what it can do!
I apologize for my over analyzing of everything. It's a very unattractive quality that my wife can't stand. But she's stuck with me so there's nothing she can do about it!
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Randy Lee
Member
When the gun is back together, and the slide is forward in battery you can check to see if there is any side play or wiggle of the barrel. Place your fingers on the barrel and see if the barrel shifts side to side in the slide with normal finger pressure. The barrel shouldn't shift around on the front end or the back end when the gun is in battery.
Randy Lee
Member
Just feed it good quality ammo, and see what groups the best for you. 
TacticalReload
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I should be fine then! Whew! There are still some high spots on the bottom fitting pad, so I didn't take too much off. I just sucked last night. Thanks again sir for your patience in answering all of my questions. I can't wait to bench rest this and see what it can do!
I apologize for my over analyzing of everything. It's a very unattractive quality that my wife can't stand. But she's stuck with me so there's nothing she can do about it!
Glad Randy was able to confirm what I said... makes me feel like I understand the whole thing correctly. ;-)
Heyman, like I said, don't sweat it until you shoot it. I empathize with where you're coming from. From your posts, you sound a lot like me... type A, sometimes high strung, impatient, and overly-analytical. I definitely get it. However, I'm reasonably certain that you didn't screw up your barrel; and I think you'll be fine.
Did you talk to my wife or something? You described me to a T. You have a pm. Let me know what you think please.
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TacticalReload
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PM replied to.
As a side note about your personality, I also bet large purchases like car-shopping are very long, tedious, and involved processes for you. Plus the internet is both your best friend and your worst nightmare. Ask me how I know. ;-)
Randy Lee
Member
There is nothing wrong with being over-analytical. If I weren't, this thread wouldn't even exist.
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Got this in after about 3 hours... took it slow and needed to take more off than I expected based on the video (muzzle and the bottom fitting pad). This is a newer CORE, I wonder if S&W tightened some tolerances?... that said the stock barrel was a pretty loose fit.
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Rodinal220
Member
Well,after dead lining my S&W FS M&P 9mm for three years I threw in the towel and bought an APEX gunsmith fit(GSF) barrel from Brownells when they had a $20 off order deal.
You can search this and a few other forums about my ordeal with accuracy and S&W did not make good on this one after trip back to the factory.Two out of three NIB stinker guns left me sour. One replaced(satisfied-BG38) and one not corrected,M&P FS 9mm.
I got tired of the lack of critical thinking about the QC issue on these guns.The usual pablum from errornet experts became quite boring:
"its the archer not the arrow"
"maybe you can't shoot"
"there is a secret S&W M&P trigger pull technique"
"you do know its not a target gun right?"
"its only supposed to deliver combat(?) accuracy"
I wanted the GSF(more meat) barrel because I felt my gun was at one end of the spectrum,really poor accuracy at close range.IMHO I see the FS 9mm guns in three categories of accuracy:acceptable to most,mediocre and really bad.
I bought a really bad one.
After the Brown Truck delivered the goods I was impressed with the overall appearance of the APEX barrel and its machining.The recessed crown was a nice touch.
I have fitted GSF barrels to 1911s and other guns before,but I still watched the APEX vid several times.The APEX barrel was WAY easier to fit than any 1911 barrel(Kart/Barsto,ect).
It took me one hour for the hood length and one hour for the bottom lug/pad.I used a diamond steel lapping plate to remove material SLOWLY.Cut and Dykem fit and repeat.
Its Bank Vault TIGHT,no play.I went for a HARD FIT.The head space checked out.I wanted the tightest fit first,and would work on reliability second.You don't want to take too much off the two points,especially the bottom lug/pad, so go slow,take your time.
The hood length(fitted 1st) was shortened by trial and fit, over and over.Taking off very little material at a time,this took an hour.Go slow and use LIGHT passes.
My Chinese 6" dial caliper gave me erratic readings on hood length.My good dial calipers are only 4 inch.
The bottom lug/pad was fitted next.I only took off .002 from the bottom lug,so .860-.002=.858.yes mine sucked that bad.
The APEX barrel had about .005 more meat on the barrel width(square end) compared to the factory, .600"(APEX) versus .595"(S&W).No side to side play with the APEX.No fitting required on my gun for the side of the breach block.
Muzzle end of the APEX required ZERO fitting so far,slips in,a little tighter than factory.
My factory barrel just flops in and has .005" play in hood length,.842" top of hood to bottom lug/pad.When inserted into the slide its easy to get it move under thumb pressure and clickitty-clack, back and forth.
APEX barrel:The slide will not return forward under stock factory spring pressure when eased forward,it takes a few pounds(2-3) of pressure for it to close and go into battery.The Apex barrel with its redesigned bottom lug increases the dwell time for lock up.The difference between the Apex and factory barrel in this respect is HUGE.
Again, I went for a HARD fit first and will work on reliability, if it needs more polishing or just shoot and break in like a Les Baer.
Accuracy??? Sorry haven't shot it When I get to the range I will let everyone know.
I have high hopes that this APEX barrel will deliver.
You can search this and a few other forums about my ordeal with accuracy and S&W did not make good on this one after trip back to the factory.Two out of three NIB stinker guns left me sour. One replaced(satisfied-BG38) and one not corrected,M&P FS 9mm.
I got tired of the lack of critical thinking about the QC issue on these guns.The usual pablum from errornet experts became quite boring:
"its the archer not the arrow"
"maybe you can't shoot"
"there is a secret S&W M&P trigger pull technique"
"you do know its not a target gun right?"
"its only supposed to deliver combat(?) accuracy"
I wanted the GSF(more meat) barrel because I felt my gun was at one end of the spectrum,really poor accuracy at close range.IMHO I see the FS 9mm guns in three categories of accuracy:acceptable to most,mediocre and really bad.
I bought a really bad one.
After the Brown Truck delivered the goods I was impressed with the overall appearance of the APEX barrel and its machining.The recessed crown was a nice touch.
I have fitted GSF barrels to 1911s and other guns before,but I still watched the APEX vid several times.The APEX barrel was WAY easier to fit than any 1911 barrel(Kart/Barsto,ect).
It took me one hour for the hood length and one hour for the bottom lug/pad.I used a diamond steel lapping plate to remove material SLOWLY.Cut and Dykem fit and repeat.
Its Bank Vault TIGHT,no play.I went for a HARD FIT.The head space checked out.I wanted the tightest fit first,and would work on reliability second.You don't want to take too much off the two points,especially the bottom lug/pad, so go slow,take your time.
The hood length(fitted 1st) was shortened by trial and fit, over and over.Taking off very little material at a time,this took an hour.Go slow and use LIGHT passes.
My Chinese 6" dial caliper gave me erratic readings on hood length.My good dial calipers are only 4 inch.
The bottom lug/pad was fitted next.I only took off .002 from the bottom lug,so .860-.002=.858.yes mine sucked that bad.
The APEX barrel had about .005 more meat on the barrel width(square end) compared to the factory, .600"(APEX) versus .595"(S&W).No side to side play with the APEX.No fitting required on my gun for the side of the breach block.
Muzzle end of the APEX required ZERO fitting so far,slips in,a little tighter than factory.
My factory barrel just flops in and has .005" play in hood length,.842" top of hood to bottom lug/pad.When inserted into the slide its easy to get it move under thumb pressure and clickitty-clack, back and forth.
APEX barrel:The slide will not return forward under stock factory spring pressure when eased forward,it takes a few pounds(2-3) of pressure for it to close and go into battery.The Apex barrel with its redesigned bottom lug increases the dwell time for lock up.The difference between the Apex and factory barrel in this respect is HUGE.
Again, I went for a HARD fit first and will work on reliability, if it needs more polishing or just shoot and break in like a Les Baer.
Accuracy??? Sorry haven't shot it
When I get to the range I will let everyone know.I have high hopes that this APEX barrel will deliver.
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TacticalReload
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The gun came back from S&W today. As a side note, the FedEx guy says he delivers a lot of large boxes from S&W to people... that doesn't sound good, does it?
This is what the note inside says:
I took it to the range and this is what it did. 10 shot groups, same ammo, same gun, different barrels.
I really can't stomach sending it back yet again. They claim it shoots within their spec. Way to set the bar LOOOOOOW.
This is what the note inside says:
I took it to the range and this is what it did. 10 shot groups, same ammo, same gun, different barrels.
I really can't stomach sending it back yet again. They claim it shoots within their spec. Way to set the bar LOOOOOOW.
Their (S&W) inability to get it to an acceptable out of the boxThe gun came back from S&W today. As a side note, the FedEx guy says he delivers a lot of large boxes from S&W to people... that doesn't sound good, does it?
This is what the note inside says:
I took it to the range and this is what it did. 10 shot groups, same ammo, same gun, different barrels.
I really can't stomach sending it back yet again. They claim it shoots within their spec. Way to set the bar LOOOOOOW.
level of accuracy is bad for the consumer but great for all of the smaller aftermarket companies to do a thriving business. In a way they're creating much needed manufacturing jobs for a struggling industry. Tongue in cheek, thanks S&W!
The gun came back from S&W today. As a side note, the FedEx guy says he delivers a lot of large boxes from S&W to people... that doesn't sound good, does it?
This is what the note inside says:
I took it to the range and this is what it did. 10 shot groups, same ammo, same gun, different barrels.
I really can't stomach sending it back yet again. They claim it shoots within their spec. Way to set the bar LOOOOOOW.
You know. I didn't buy into the whole the M&P9 is inaccurate claims either until I couldn't hit a silhouette target at 75 yards with my M&P9 Pro during a USPSA match. People I know that are not as good of a shooter as I am were hitting it, so I began my research which lead me here and to purchasing an Apex SDI barrel. I still have some things I need to tweak, but already this barrel is heads and shoulders more accurate than the factory barrel. I will have a detailed review of it after the weekend after I'm able to do some more testing/shooting.
It's a shame S&W is ok with their factory barrel being that inaccurate. Even for self defense purposes, that's terrible. But I guess it's good for companies like Apex Tactical.
Philadelphia Patriot
Member
Has S&W publicly acknowledged ANY problems with their barrels? I know they change the twist rate on the full sized M&P9 from the original model.
I knew many people back in the day who put Bar Sto barrels in their 5906's cause they couldn't hit **** either.
TacticalReload
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Not really. They changed the twist rate but the story behind that was to supposedly stabilize heavier bullets better. However, that's not the problem here.
Based on everything I see, read, and experience, I'm thinking that a lot of the inaccuracy is coming not so much from the play in the parts as it is from the design of the barrel and locking mechanism. Randy from Apex has written a lot about what he's determined, and I believe what he says. There are plenty of other "loose" guns from other manufacturers that will shoot circles around a lot of the M&Ps. The tolerance stacking effect only exacerbates it, but isn't the sole cause, IMO.
I've seen numerous reports here and elsewhere where S&W CS reps have supposedly told people that these reports of poor accuracy are simply Internet-inspired nonsense. Even if they are to claim that the accuracy isn't a problem with the platform itself, I don't understand how I can send them my gun, have them "test" it, and then have them send it back saying it is within specs. The pic I posted yesterday with the factory barrel is hardly the worst I've shot with this thing... There were plenty of groups that were worse. In fact the reason why the groups aren't both shot on the Shoot-n-C yellow targets is because they weren't big enough to even ensure that the shots were going to hit it... I tried two other times to shoot groups on them with the factory barrel and some of the shots went off the paper completely.
As for other brands of drop in barrels, I think that since they don't change the geometry of the lugs and therefore affect dwell time, any accuracy improvement with them will be primarily due to tightening up the fit for w more consistent lock up. I haven't seen any reports from people who have dramatic improvements using them.
Look, maybe I'm completely wrong about this whole thing. Perhaps my gun is one of the very very few that leave the factory with this issue. Who knows. All I know is that I spent a lot of money on this gun and it required an extra $200 fitted barrel to shoot acceptably for me in my opinion. I'm not thrilled to say the least.
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Randy Lee
Member
I'm sorry to hear that you had that experience with the factory.
It seems that as with many manufacturers, it is purely a numbers game. Consider that Smith cranks out literally THOUSANDS of M&Ps per day. By now there have to be at least a million M&P9s in circulation world wide.
Even if the vast majority of owners had guns that wouldn't group better than 5" at 25 yards, most owners wouldn't know it or even care since they are not students of the pistol as it were. So while the guns may not be up to our standard of accuracy, the untold numbers of consumers who are happy with their guns tells the decisionmakers that it is "Good enough".
For some of us in the industry, an accountant's interpretation of "Good enough" simply...isn't.
