Accuracy is coming: Apex M&P Barrels

[Randy Lee]

Greetings,

Since this thread involves something I designed, I thought it wise to dispel some myth, conjecture and speculation. Rather than have forum members try to sift through a loooong thread on another forum, I thought I could post some relevant data here.

The interweb is chocked full of complaints about the M&P 9 accuracy (or lack thereof). Some reports I found to be valid while others were shooter induced errors. In my case, my personal M&P 5" would shoot about a 24" group at 50 yards off sandbags. To me, that is unacceptable. Period. So I spent the past few years trying to understand why some M&Ps shot acceptably well while others were beyond dismal.

Someone in an earlier thread stated that the M&P is a duty gun and not a target gun. My question is: Why can't they be one in the same? I believe it is a perpetual misconception that the polymer framed striker fired pistol cannot go toe to toe with some of the best custom pistols like Les Baers, Browns, Wilsons and the like. I have the test targets from 25 and 50 yards to prove it. I have several targets from different guns that measure sub half inch at 25. The best one measures .313" center to center for 5 shots, and it is a police officer's duty gun. That is what a gunsmith fit barrel will do. If engineered correctly and properly fitted there should be no compromise to functional reliability.

Our Semi Drop-In should not be interpreted to be in the same class as a drop-in barrel made by other manufacturers. My testing of aftermarket drop-in barrels mirrors what others have found- little to no reduction in group size.

The hood length of our barrel is left about .002" longer than nominal slide dimensions, and the bottom lug has a fitting pad that may require fitting depending on your individual gun's vertical slide to frame tolerance. Worst case scenario is that it will take about 15 minutes with a sharp pillar file to fit hood length and bottom lug to your gun. In my testing the SDI barrels shot under 1.5" at 25 yards with all the ammo we tested. The best groups so far have been with Fiocchi 115 gr jhp, Magtech Guardian Gold 124 gr jhp and PRVI 147 gr jhp - data shows that our barrel will shoot the spectrum of bullet weights well provided that the projectile is of quality manufacture.

I do not believe everyone needs our barrel. Like all aftermarket parts it is personal choice.

 

[Danimal300]

I shoot 2011 pistols as well as competition 1911s. The accuracy and precision of those guns is phenomenal. But you pay a premium for it. Competition tuned magazines for an STI are $150 each.

So putting a barrel into an M&P core does not look that bad, if they can bring the accuracy more in line with similar competition pistols. I have to say I have been a little underwhelmed with my M&P pro series core 5" accuracy. I bought this gun for competition only, but have not really been using it because I do not have the confidence that I need in it. Maybe the APEX barrel and trigger will change that.

 

[agksimon]

Degree of accuracy is subjective: To me, if I can bench rest and get 2 inches at 25 yards, that is good enough for me. For others, 4-5 inches is good enough. Some of my guns will get 2 inches, but my M&P Pro 9 and Compact 9 won't come close to that.

 

[Col._Joe]

I have been lurking on thus site for a while . This thread has my attention.
For full disclosure I have been a beta tester of APEX products for some time. I also want to note I paid for the barrel.
I am the police officer Randy talked about running his barrel on my duty MP9. The accuracy of the pistol is much greater than my ability to shoot. Who wouldn't like to be able to shoot groups that small free standing.
I have had the barrel for a few months. I can say that the pistol has been used in a Frank Proctor class shortly after getting it. I shot about 1600 rounds that weekend. There was no malfunction of any kind. Since I had received it I have over 5000 rounds through it everything from Federal HST to my reloads. There hasn't been a problem with function on anything. Right now I have sent it back to APEX to see what kind of accuracy it gets with that many rounds.
Some people have commented on wether or not it's worth buying. I think it is. Is it cheap nope. However the accuracy I have is confidence building. I know if I missed it is my fault. Is it for everyone? I guess each person has to decide if it worth it. I am at a point where I want accurate AND reliable pistol.
I am lucky to have a progressive policy at work so I carry it on duty but that is a topic for another thread..

 

[ghoffman]

Great couple of posts - thanks! We have had several discussions on this forum over the past couple of months about what makes a gun accurate. I'm not asking what makes a shooter accurate, but what makes the gun accurate - Barrel length? Twist? ammo? Sights, sight radius? If someone can talk about what they had to change it would go a long way to answering this question! . A few of the guys here know something about this and the rest us (me!) are just guessing. So, what has Apex done to make the M&P so much more accurate and when can I buy one?
Thanks,
GHOFFMAN

 

[Rastoff]

In my case, my personal M&P 5" would shoot about a 24" group at 50 yards off sandbags. To me, that is unacceptable.

If that's not a typo, it's not just unacceptable, your gun is broken. 24" groups when using a sand bag is the worst I've ever heard of.

Someone in an earlier thread stated that the M&P is a duty gun and not a target gun. My question is: Why can't they be one in the same?

I've said this myself. They can be one in the same.

Please understand this is not said to say that a duty gun shouldn't be accurate. It is merely said to bring the reality of how this gun is manufactured. The trigger is not tuned to be a thing of wonder and beauty. It's built stiff on purpose and that doesn't translate to a fine target gun. The fitment of parts is intended to make a gun with acceptable accuracy and still have interchangeable parts.

There is no reason a duty gun can't be accurate. Actually, the term repeatable is more applicable to this discussion.

With a quality barrel, the gun will be repeatable. It's the lock up in the slide that makes the difference in both precision and accuracy. If the barrel doesn't lock up the same every time, it won't be repeatable because the sights will be aligned differently with the bore every time. So, the only way to really get a very repeatable, accurate gun, is to have the barrel/chamber fitted to the slide. This reduces the functionality as an interchangeable part gun.

Of course even as a defensive tool, accuracy is important. You want to know that if you do your part, the gun will put rounds where you want them.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Greetings,

Since this thread involves something I designed, I thought it wise to dispel some myth, conjecture and speculation. Rather than have forum members try to sift through a loooong thread on another forum, I thought I could post some relevant data here.

The interweb is chocked full of complaints about the M&P 9 accuracy (or lack thereof). Some reports I found to be valid while others were shooter induced errors. In my case, my personal M&P 5" would shoot about a 24" group at 50 yards off sandbags. To me, that is unacceptable. Period. So I spent the past few years trying to understand why some M&Ps shot acceptably well while others were beyond dismal.

Someone in an earlier thread stated that the M&P is a duty gun and not a target gun. My question is: Why can't they be one in the same? I believe it is a perpetual misconception that the polymer framed striker fired pistol cannot go toe to toe with some of the best custom pistols like Les Baers, Browns, Wilsons and the like. I have the test targets from 25 and 50 yards to prove it. I have several targets from different guns that measure sub half inch at 25. The best one measures .313" center to center for 5 shots, and it is a police officer's duty gun. That is what a gunsmith fit barrel will do. If engineered correctly and properly fitted there should be no compromise to functional reliability.

Our Semi Drop-In should not be interpreted to be in the same class as a drop-in barrel made by other manufacturers. My testing of aftermarket drop-in barrels mirrors what others have found- little to no reduction in group size.

The hood length of our barrel is left about .002" longer than nominal slide dimensions, and the bottom lug has a fitting pad that may require fitting depending on your individual gun's vertical slide to frame tolerance. Worst case scenario is that it will take about 15 minutes with a sharp pillar file to fit hood length and bottom lug to your gun. In my testing the SDI barrels shot under 1.5" at 25 yards with all the ammo we tested. The best groups so far have been with Fiocchi 115 gr jhp, Magtech Guardian Gold 124 gr jhp and PRVI 147 gr jhp - data shows that our barrel will shoot the spectrum of bullet weights well provided that the projectile is of quality manufacture.

I do not believe everyone needs our barrel. Like all aftermarket parts it is personal choice.

If you're going to promote your products here, don't you think you should donate to this forum?

How much word of mouth advertising here has helped your sales?

 

[Randy Lee]

If you're going to promote your products here, don't you think you should donate to this forum?

How much word of mouth advertising here has helped your sales?

If the moderators feel I am overstepping my bounds, then I apologize and will remove my posts.

My intention is not to promote my products, as I believe their results speak for themselves.

That being said,I would be happy to contribute to this forum.

I have studied the accuracy issue within the M&P for several years. I have also scanned this forum as well as others looking for data and explanations as others have. And to this date, no-one on the internet has been able to explain why some M&Ps will shoot acceptably while others have not. More questions surface like: "Why did the factory go to a 1:10 twist barrel when according to others, should never have been used in the 9mm?" or "Why doesn't my M&P shoot groups as well as my Sig/CZ/HK etc?"

I am more than willing to share my understanding of this topic, but I will not do so here if the forum moderators feel it inappropriate or consider it self promoting.

 

[malph]

If the moderators feel I am overstepping my bounds, then I apologize and will remove my posts.

My intention is not to promote my products, as I believe their results speak for themselves.

That being said,I would be happy to contribute to this forum.

I have studied the accuracy issue within the M&P for several years. I have also scanned this forum as well as others looking for data and explanations as others have. And to this date, no-one on the internet has been able to explain why some M&Ps will shoot acceptably while others have not. More questions surface like: "Why did the factory go to a 1:10 twist barrel when according to others, should never have been used in the 9mm?" or "Why doesn't my M&P shoot groups as well as my Sig/CZ/HK etc?"

I am more than willing to share my understanding of this topic, but I will not do so here if the forum moderators feel it inappropriate or consider it self promoting.

I am not a moderator but have been a member for quite some time now. Randy's work and obvious knowledge are very well respected. We will all probably learn something from having him participate on this forum. For that reason, I'd hate to see him pull his posts and move on.

Perhaps there was a bit of self promoting going on but I'm ok with that if the guy is contributing to the overall body of knowledge on the forum.

This is just my opinion. I respect others may feel differently.

 

[pyro]

If you're going to promote your products here, don't you think you should donate to this forum?

How much word of mouth advertising here has helped your sales?

That was uncalled for.

 

[agksimon]

If the moderators feel I am overstepping my bounds, then I apologize and will remove my posts.

My intention is not to promote my products, as I believe their results speak for themselves.

That being said,I would be happy to contribute to this forum.

I have studied the accuracy issue within the M&P for several years. I have also scanned this forum as well as others looking for data and explanations as others have. And to this date, no-one on the internet has been able to explain why some M&Ps will shoot acceptably while others have not. More questions surface like: "Why did the factory go to a 1:10 twist barrel when according to others, should never have been used in the 9mm?" or "Why doesn't my M&P shoot groups as well as my Sig/CZ/HK etc?"

I am more than willing to share my understanding of this topic, but I will not do so here if the forum moderators feel it inappropriate or consider it self promoting.

Randy: You and Apex Tactical have done more for M&P owners, than any other ten companies combined. You won't release a product, until it's been thoroughly tested and proven. This means a lot to those of us that frequent this group and I would hope that the moderator(s) would make an allowance for this.
Please don't let one person, posting negative comments, ruin it for the rest of us. We love Apex.

 

[ghoffman]

I hope we would welcome people that actually know what they are talking abou.! We all go on and on talking about what we guess is going on then shut down the experts. This is not helpful.

 

[Llando88]

If the moderators feel I am overstepping my bounds, then I apologize and will remove my posts.

My intention is not to promote my products, as I believe their results speak for themselves.

That being said,I would be happy to contribute to this forum.

I have studied the accuracy issue within the M&P for several years. I have also scanned this forum as well as others looking for data and explanations as others have. And to this date, no-one on the internet has been able to explain why some M&Ps will shoot acceptably while others have not. More questions surface like: "Why did the factory go to a 1:10 twist barrel when according to others, should never have been used in the 9mm?" or "Why doesn't my M&P shoot groups as well as my Sig/CZ/HK etc?"

I am more than willing to share my understanding of this topic, but I will not do so here if the forum moderators feel it inappropriate or consider it self promoting.

Thanks Randy. I for one genuinely appreciate your clarifying the technical details of your potential future products, in particular the accuracy issues of the M&P Full Size 9.

I wish more aftermarket suppliers, and even Smith and Wesson itself, would participate more, but I understand it takes time away from product development.

Looking forward to hearing more about the barrels soon.

Respectfully, Rich

 

[Kanewpadle]

If the moderators feel I am overstepping my bounds, then I apologize and will remove my posts.

My intention is not to promote my products, as I believe their results speak for themselves.

That being said,I would be happy to contribute to this forum.

I have studied the accuracy issue within the M&P for several years. I have also scanned this forum as well as others looking for data and explanations as others have. And to this date, no-one on the internet has been able to explain why some M&Ps will shoot acceptably while others have not. More questions surface like: "Why did the factory go to a 1:10 twist barrel when according to others, should never have been used in the 9mm?" or "Why doesn't my M&P shoot groups as well as my Sig/CZ/HK etc?"

I am more than willing to share my understanding of this topic, but I will not do so here if the forum moderators feel it inappropriate or consider it self promoting.

Randy, I too have benefited from your product and appreciate your participation here. My comment was more tongue in cheek than serious. Thanks for not being so thin skinned.

 

[Rastoff]

"Why doesn't my M&P shoot groups as well as my Sig/CZ/HK etc?"

This one is easily answered; different guns.

The vast majority of "accuracy" issues are due to the shooter. You'll notice that when people ask about accuracy concerns, they always say, "Why does my gun shoot low," not, "Why am I shooting low."

The question Randy asked above has two answers. One is due to the quality of the gun/barrel build and how it's fitted together. The other is due to the shooter.

Whenever I read about a person's gun being inaccurate, I always ask if the gun was shot from a rest. 99% of the answers have been no. If you don't eliminate the human error, you can't ever know if the gun is having problems or not.

The most common M&P inaccuracy is shooting low and left. This comes from a right hand shooter who is standing, unsupported. The most common cause is due to trigger control. The M&P does not have a good trigger. Some shooters are able to overcome this and shoot relatively well. Many others install an Apex kit and see their shooting dramatically improve; I am one of those. In both cases, it still requires the shooter to work on their form.

Those who work on their form and improve with the M&P find they shoot all their guns better.

Now, remove the human error by using a rest and the true accuracy of the gun is found. It's this error that an improved barrel, properly fitted, will make a tremendous difference to.

I don't see this thread as a sales pitch. I hope we can continue.

 

[Randy Lee]

First, thank you all for your words of encouragement.

Rastoff, you raise very relevant points as there must be a distinction made between practical accuracy and mechanical accuracy. My knowledge base is within the realm of the mechanical accuracy since if the gun cannot demonstrate repeatable group sizes out of a mechanical rest (without human introduced error) the practical accuracy becomes a point of pure speculation. This is where I find most internet discussions end up. Lots of theories but no verifiable data.

I found it funny that there is very little information or data on results from the Ransom Rest for either the M&P or Glock on the Net. I think part of that is because the Ransom Rest sandwiches the polymer frame between two soft urethane pads. The polmer frames being plastic tend to shift between these pads. So much so that just pulling the slide to the rear to charge the gun will cause the point of aim to shift dramatically. So I expect that the results many were getting with the Ransom were not as positive as they had hoped.

In my mind, the only way to test mechanical accuracy is with a machine rest, so I had to come up with my own test procedures and fixtures to compensate for the shortcomings of the rest. Each shot fired also had to be individually sighted in on the target due to the slippage. I also believe that that is the way the end user would shott the pistol, so it made sense to use the slide mounted sights for each shot.

 

[Rastoff]

I concur Randy. The Ransom rest, or any similar rest, does have shortcomings, but they can be accounted for by technique.

In order to test mechanical accuracy, you must account for and eliminate as many variables as possible. Also, the item under test must be used as it would be used by the end user. So, the sights must be used to line up the gun. This has to be done immediately prior to the shot and after the gun is charged. Otherwise, the sights will move and disrupt the test.

Mount the gun in the vise. Rack a round into the chamber. Then set the sights on the intended target. This must be the same every time. In fact, it must be set by the same person every time to reduce the error in how the sights are used between people.

When the trigger is pulled, it must be consistent and in a manner that won't disturb the set up. If the trigger is jerked, you'll have the same issue a shooter would have; sights will move.

The main reason revolvers tend to be more accurate than auto-loading pistols is how the sights are mounted. Because the sights are mounted directly to the barrel, they will always be in exactly the same place. For an auto-loader, the sights are not mounted to the barrel. Any movement at all between the barrel and slide will add error to the shot-to-shot accuracy.

This is why modular pistols are less accurate than custom fit pistols. The added tolerance necessary for parts to just "drop in" makes the lock up less precise. Less precision in the lock up translates to less precision at the target.

I would love to get my hands on a Ransom rest and one of your new barrels. I think you have something special here.

 

[Bkreutz]

When I clean my M&P, I can just pop the barrel out and clean it. I am not sure how it would work if gun smith has to fit it, how can I clean the barrel. My gun is in the shop for upgrading the apex kit, will definitely look at this after couple of months.

It only has to be fit on initial installation, after that the owner can pop the barrel out as normal. The fitted barrels are made intentionally too big and a gunsmith takes metal off the barrel to get the tightest possible fit and still have functionality.

 

[Col._Joe]

The APEX fitted barrel is a little tighter than factory. But it comes out with a little push and goes in just as easy as the factory barrel. It does need to be lined up. So you don't start it sloppy with a little cant to the side. Otherwise just the same

 

[Randy Lee]

Great couple of posts - thanks! We have had several discussions on this forum over the past couple of months about what makes a gun accurate. I'm not asking what makes a shooter accurate, but what makes the gun accurate - Barrel length? Twist? ammo? Sights, sight radius? If someone can talk about what they had to change it would go a long way to answering this question! . A few of the guys here know something about this and the rest us (me!) are just guessing. So, what has Apex done to make the M&P so much more accurate and when can I buy one?
Thanks,
GHOFFMAN

Your question has a multi layered and complex answer- which is why there are so many discussions but so little repeatable solutions. I will try and explain what we found during the process of designing our barrel.

Polymer pistols are typically lighter weight than all steel and alloy framed guns. This is the interface between the shooter and all the things happening from the time you pick up the pistol through the firing cycle. Although it has been covered before, the frame on a full size M&P weighs about 7 ounces without a magazine, yet the trigger pull weight on a stock non PC model factory gun is roughly 6 lbs- that is 96 ounces. This means that a human shooter has to pull a trigger that is nearly 14 times the weight of the frame. This is where the human component can (and often does) introduce muscle input into the gun that affects the final position of the gun while the bullet is still in the barrel. All things being equal, unless the shooter has machine like control over how they press the trigger straight to the rear and hold the frame with consistent pressure inconsistencies will appear downrange.

I did not mention the slide assembly in this discussion because the substantially lighter frame reacts more quickly to changes in force and therefore position. This has a greater chance of affecting the final position of the barrel just before the bullet leaves the bore.

This is why the human element (for me) needed to be removed in order to test mechanical accuracy of the M&P.