Adjusting the timing

[Pdxrealtor]

Talking carry up here.

I see some issues are caused by a ratchet that is too long, but what about shortening those ratchets for performance?

Any benefit to adjusting the carry up so the cylinder stop locks the cylinder at the latest possible time?

 

[chief38]

No real benefit and a sure fired recipe for an out of timed gun. Leave well enough alone as the timing is a delicate part of the S&W mechanism.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Talking carry up here.

I see some issues are caused by a ratchet that is too long, but what about shortening those ratchets for performance?

Any benefit to adjusting the carry up so the cylinder stop locks the cylinder at the latest possible time?

The cylinder should carry up as quickly and as solidly as possible. Once it carries up, your work filing that ratchet is done, and you move on to the next one . . .

 

[Pdxrealtor]

No real benefit and a sure fired recipe for an out of timed gun. Leave well enough alone as the timing is a delicate part of the S&W mechanism.

Indeed... very delicate. That's why I want to play with it

 

[Pdxrealtor]

The cylinder should carry up as quickly and as solidly as possible. Once it carries up, your work filing that ratchet is done, and you move on to the next one . . .

I have guns that carry up very fast, and others that are slower. Watching both the bottom of the cylinder, and the hand interaction through the back of the window it would seem the ones that carry up slower provide the greatest benefit as there is less friction all around.

Overall a slower timed gun just seems like a more ideal 'tune'.

 

[flintsghost]

As an armorer, we are taught by S&W to time the carry up so the cylinder stop locks as early as possible. If you don't like that they you should be playing with a Colt that has a two stage hand and the carry up on the second stage locks as the hammer falls. But it's a different system. If you try to set a Smith up like that, then maybe you should change your name to "Bubba."

 

[Pdxrealtor]

As an armorer, we are taught by S&W to time the carry up so the cylinder stop locks as early as possible. If you don't like that they you should be playing with a Colt that has a two stage hand and the carry up on the second stage locks as the hammer falls. But it's a different system. If you try to set a Smith up like that, then maybe you should change your name to "Bubba."

I never said a word about not liking it.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

In reviewing the the Kuhnhausen shop manual it states the spec to be cylinder stop dropping at or just after the beginning of the divot on the cylinder.

Doesn't say anything about earlier being a problem, however I would think as the book states.... that the timing would be 'perfect' the way the book mentions.

 

[Hapworth]

...Overall a slower timed gun just seems like a more ideal 'tune'.

Not really, just that much closer to being worn out and DNCU -- "does not carry up".

Also, tuning ratchets properly is one of the the most involved jobs there is on a S&W revolver; highly unadvised for the untrained or those without proper tools.

If the revolver carries up properly and smoothly on each charge hole, strongly suggest leaving well enough alone.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Thanks guys. I guess I'll just have to hunt for a gun that has long ratchets.

 

[armorer951]

I'm not sure what "performance" benefit would result from having the timing be "late". Perhaps you could explain further on that notion. Material erased from the ratchets cannot be restored, and as Hapworth said, you're just closer to the inevitable DNCU condition. I personally like the timing and lockup to be as early as possible. (as early as the the installed components will allow)

If a late timing were desired, it could be achieved without touching the ratchets by simply substituting a thinner (by .001"-.002") hand.

 

[OKFC05]

Talking carry up here.

I see some issues are caused by a ratchet that is too long, but what about shortening those ratchets for performance?

Any benefit to adjusting the carry up so the cylinder stop locks the cylinder at the latest possible time?

As an IDPA revolver shooter since there has been IDPA, I can testify that your idea is 100% bassachwards of how you want the revolver setup for competition.

The cylinder stop has inertia, and does not instantly snap up when the cylinder is rotating in fast double-action shooting. The faster you shoot, the more you wish the timing was early, because the cylinder stop will hit the notch sides only partway down and wear the cylinder prematurely.

 

[Targets Guy]

You guys are talking Greek. but it is fun to read.

Wow! is all I can say.

 

[tomcatt51]

The cylinder stop has inertia, and does not instantly snap up when the cylinder is rotating in fast double-action shooting. The faster you shoot, the more you wish the timing was early, because the cylinder stop will hit the notch sides only partway down and wear the cylinder prematurely.

??? The cylinder stop is up against the cylinder, waiting for the cylinder to rotate far enough for it to engage its' notch when the trigger is less than half way thru it's pull. It has nothing to do with hand/ratchet timing.

The cylinder stop isn't controlled by the hand/ratchet. The cylinder position is, as is the "glitch" at the end of the DA pull (that "staged" feel idiot gun writers like to talk about) incorrectly trimmed ratchets can give.

Want your trigger to have that "staged" feel? Just install a thicker hand. You'll get the "glitch" at the end of the trigger pull and if you watch the cylinder / cylinder stop as you slowly pull the trigger thru DA you'll see the "glitch" starts right when the cylinder stop has dropped into its' notch, the cylinder stops rotating, and you're still pulling the trigger to get to hammer fall.

 

[OKFC05]

Tom, your criticism is irrelevant to my comment. See the original question:

Any benefit to adjusting the carry up so the cylinder stop locks the cylinder at the latest possible time?

My answer:
No! That is the opposite of what you want to happen. The cylinder lock timing should be as early as possible.

So back to Tom, what you are describing is what happens if the hand timing is set as early as possible like it is supposed to be. I agree, that is how it is supposed to happen.

If the hand timing were set as LATE as possible as the OP suggests, the hand would NOT be up against the cylinder, and would probably start skipping in rapid double-action firing.
I examined one Model 66 for sale that did indeed skip in rapid fire, and needed serious correction.

Any way you look at it, setting the cylinder lockup as late as possible is an idea that can only cause problems, which will show up more quickly with rapid firing.

 

[tomcatt51]

"Skipping" is pretty much (when shooting fast) one of two things:

The sear doesn't reset, so the cylinder spins but the hammer doesn't move back. Because the shooter doesn't let the trigger fully return (usually called "short stroking") or the sear wasn't set up correctly and mechanically can't move forward as it should.

FWIW, if you carefully let the trigger slowly reset there's three things you'll feel near the end of the trigger reset. The hand engaging the next ratchet, the sear resetting and the cylinder stop resetting.

The other skip is when the cylinder stop jumps it's notch and the cylinder ends up not indexed so the firing pin misses the primer, or it rotates to the next stop (inertia) and your six shooter goes click after 5 shots... and you cycle it thru to find the "skipped", unfired chamber. This is from a worn stop, or spring or the notch and/or it's ramp need attention.

Neither has anything to do with hand / ratchet timing which shows up shooting DA slowly.

I set my guns up to not have the "glitch" and yes the cylinder stop engages just barely before hammer fall when shot slowly DA. No glitch at the end of the pull. They run fast just fine.

 

[OKFC05]

The other skip is when the cylinder stop jumps it's notch and the cylinder ends up not indexed so the firing pin misses the primer, or it rotates to the next stop (inertia) and your six shooter goes click after 5 shots... and you cycle it thru to find the "skipped", unfired chamber. This is a worn stop, or spring or the notch and/or it's ramp need attention.

That's what I saw on the 66 I was looking at: the top half of the cylinder notches was pretty chewed up and it would skip if operated quickly.

Lacking your gunsmith skills and not wanting to buy a new cylinder, I passed on buying that one.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Interesting reading. I can't understand why they call it timing if there's no such thing as too early. *shrug*

I had to clean up the ratchets on the L frame in my other thread. While I was at it I took the approach in the shop manual of putting dykem on all of them and running the cylinder through 4 cycles of single action.

Two of the seven were obviously very high so I filed them down a bit. Did the filing, no problem.

Did the lockup check.... problem. Two of the darn things would just BARELY not lock up on the slow SA method. They were both very close, the range rod would only nick one of them, the other was so close the rod wouldn't even nick it.

So... did some reading and peened them. Big mistake because that enlarged metal went right to the trigger feel (could be my peening skills or lack of). After more pondering I realized I had made another big mistake. I remembered Armorer explaining the importance of putting brass in the chambers.

With brass in the chambers there are no issues.

It got me thinking as to why I wouldn't file each ratchet so the cylinder stop would drop at the time the cylinder divots come around time, as do the two I filed.

Here's a picture. It's magnified 2x. The two ratchets I filed were perfectly shaped until I peened them unnecessarily. Now one of them isn't as ideal as I'd like it. However, those two ratchets feel the best which is why I asked this question.

 

[grip frame]

There is some validity to the thought IMO of not wanting a Smith revolver to be to "positively timed" I will call it as it much degrades the trigger pull/smoothness in DA mode. Also in DA mode the speed of the cylinder rotation is increased and will lead to more cylinder stop notch peening.

I have noticed a trend with the 30 or so Smith revolvers I have owned over the years that Smith tends to adjust/tune the timing of the guns to be perfect for DA shooting. So many NIB revolvers I have seen that would be considered to have slow carry up when using is single action mode.

I am guilty of installing oversize hands in many a N frame .44 mag as I like the more positive carry up and lockup and primarily shoot them in single action mode.

 

[bountyhunter]

Talking carry up here.

I see some issues are caused by a ratchet that is too long, but what about shortening those ratchets for performance?

Any benefit to adjusting the carry up so the cylinder stop locks the cylinder at the latest possible time?

Worst thing to do. You actually want it to lock as early as possible, assuming you don't have any binding or resistance. Wear gradually makes it carry up later so setting it "on the edge" to begin with means you'll be working on it again really soon.