Advice on how to achieve some specific trigger modifications

[jent]

I have an M&P 9c. After several thousand rounds, I have decided I think I would like to change a couple aspects of the trigger. Although from what I have read, what I want to change sounds different from most people.

After thousands of rounds, and even more dry fire practice, I have no issues with a "gritty" trigger. This is not a concern for me.

I also have no complaints about the reset. It feels strong and positive to me, and I recognize it without issue.

The biggest thing I would like to improve is the very hard wall you hit right before the break. You have a lot of take up, then it is a very heavy (about 7lb's) wall before it actually breaks. I would like to make this wall not quite so heavy if possible.

The second, more minor concern, would be to try to reduce the take up you have before hitting this wall. This is totally a secondary issue, the sort of thing that is "if I am going to be in there, might as well see if I can improve both".

How would I accomplish these goals? I have seen apex triggers, but it is not super obvious what I need to accomplish exactly the changes I want.

From the sounds of it, maybe a lighter striker spring would help with that wall. The question is, how much? What other springs would impact that wall? I obviously don't want to have light strikes, and since this is a daily carry gun, I want to keep it reliable. But maybe a slightly lighter striker spring would help? Any suggestions or links to which spring I should get?

As far as the take up, is the apex sear the solution?

https://apextactical.com/store/product-info.php?pid18.html

It says it reduces "over travel", is that the same thing as take up?

It describes a reduced trigger pull weight, but does not say where that pull weight is reduced, would this also help on that wall I described earlier?

Thanks in advance...it's hard to find exactly how to _fine tune_ my triger like I want to. I am nervous about just completely replacing with an apex trigger (worried the reset would possibly be too short, or something weird I am not expecting....I would really like to know what I am changing, and how). I am mostly nervous because I don't feel like my trigger is _terrible_, just has a few details I would like to improve.

 

[Bkreutz]

The biggest thing I would like to improve is the very hard wall you hit right before the break. You have a lot of take up, then it is a very heavy (about 7lb's) wall before it actually breaks. I would like to make this wall not quite so heavy if possible.

(Apex FSS kit and trigger used with the stock spring gives you about a 4# trigger, they include lighter and heavier springs with the kit if you want to play with it.)

The second, more minor concern, would be to try to reduce the take up you have before hitting this wall. This is totally a secondary issue, the sort of thing that is "if I am going to be in there, might as well see if I can improve both".

(The Apex FSS and trigger will do this, see my link below)

How would I accomplish these goals? I have seen apex triggers, but it is not super obvious what I need to accomplish exactly the changes I want.

From the sounds of it, maybe a lighter striker spring would help with that wall. The question is, how much? What other springs would impact that wall? I obviously don't want to have light strikes, and since this is a daily carry gun, I want to keep it reliable. But maybe a slightly lighter striker spring would help? Any suggestions or links to which spring I should get?

(Changing the striker spring won't get you anything regarding the trigger pull weight)

As far as the take up, is the apex sear the solution?

https://apextactical.com/store/product-info.php?pid18.html

It says it reduces "over travel", is that the same thing as take up?

It describes a reduced trigger pull weight, but does not say where that pull weight is reduced, would this also help on that wall I described earlier?

Thanks in advance...it's hard to find exactly how to _fine tune_ my triger like I want to. I am nervous about just completely replacing with an apex trigger (worried the reset would possibly be too short, or something weird I am not expecting....I would really like to know what I am changing, and how). I am mostly nervous because I don't feel like my trigger is _terrible_, just has a few details I would like to improve.

Look at post 18 in this thread http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/322411-wow-apex-fss-t-kit.html

 

[jent]

Thanks for your reply. I still have some questions.

I thought the wall you hit before the break was caused by the striker spring? Is that not the case? That's why I thought a striker spring would help make that wall not quite so hard. If that's not the case, why does apex replace that spring in their kits?

My other question is what the difference is between getting a FSS, and just getting their "carry/duty" kit:

https://apextactical.com/store/product-info.php?pid35.html

https://apextactical.com/store/product-info.php?pid70.html

I personally don't care at all about the hinged trigger, so I was not planning to replace the actual trigger. Mostly focused on the mechanisms inside. For that reason I was thinking the duty/carry kit made sense for me.

Thoughts?

 

[Bkreutz]

Thanks for your reply. I still have some questions.

I thought the wall you hit before the break was caused by the striker spring? Is that not the case? That's why I thought a striker spring would help make that wall not quite so hard. If that's not the case, why does apex replace that spring in their kits?

My other question is what the difference is between getting a FSS, and just getting their "carry/duty" kit:

https://apextactical.com/store/product-info.php?pid35.html

https://apextactical.com/store/product-info.php?pid70.html


Thoughts?

I'm running a stock striker spring in my competition gun, never felt the need to change it. The only reason I could see to do that is if I decided to run a compensator (or I lightened the slide significantly). In order to use the Forward Set Sear, you have to change the trigger too, it's a geometry thing. As a plus, I like the blade type trigger over the hinged stock one. Contrary to what some people say about the M&P, pulling the trigger only releases the striker unless you count the microscopic amount that the sear pulls it back, it's about the same amount as shooting a revolver single action. I don't use the RAM and don't particularly care about audible or tactile reset since my typical split times between shots is around 0.2 sec, not really enough time for that to matter. I've just gone over 60K rounds on my Core and I put the Apex in at around 5K, I've had to replace the trigger return spring once.

 

[jent]

Great information, this is exactly what I was hoping to get.

So do you think the "Duty/Carry Action Enhancement Kit" would accomplish my goals?

What would the FSS give me that the "Duty/Carry Action Enhancement Kit" would not?

 

[Jiman]

Based on what you describe, I think I'd change out the sear and maybe the striker block.

The sear reduces the weight of the wall (trigger pull weight) and the rest distance (I.e. You don't have to let the trigger out as far before hearing the "click" and firing again)

The striker block smooths out the uptake (what I call slack in the trigger) but it won't lessen the distance. FWIW, you could do this to your stock plunger by rounding/polishing the domed portion.

As far as I know only the FSS will shorten the uptake but it also includes other stuff you didn't identify as issues so it might be too much (different trigger, very short reset, very little over travel)

Overtravel is the rearward movement of the trigger after the sear releases (I.e the gun fires) so that the sear can reset for the next shot as you let the trigger back out. It's not much even on a stock gun. IMO in an SD gun I wouldn't mess with it.

 

[78Staff]

I have the Duty/Carry kit in my Shield, and also the aluminum trigger, which is available separately. I have the FSS kit (which includes a trigger) and RAM in my FS 40.

The FSS kit generally is not recommended for a true carry gun, concealed or otherwise. It dramatically changes the sear geometry and approaches a 1911 like trigger. Mine is just installed, and has very little takeup and a very distinct reset, and breaks right around 5 lbs with the lighter of the two included springs.

The DCAEK kit has more travel and less distinct reset than the FSS, and is a more "sane" trigger for a carry gun. It can be used with the stock hinged trigger, or you can add an Apex trigger as I did. This kit the trigger breaks about 5.5-6 lbs with the included spring. You can go lighter, ie 4.5lbs or so by using the oem M&P trigger spring, but in a carry gun I don't see the need.

So think of the FSS kit as setting up a 1911 type trigger in your M&P, with trigger weights of anywhere from 3.5-6.5 lbs or so available depending on how you set it up. The DCAEK kit improves the M&P design, but without the drastic change the FSS kit does - it's sort of in between the stock setup and the FSS I guess.

For that matter, they also offer a competition kit, which a buddy who works a my LGS has, which is FSS on steroids more or less, but with the ability to go very light - his has a 2.5lb trigger and has to be shot to be believed .

Short answer, the DCAEK kit is pretty much the one you want, imo. If you like the stock trigger, you are basically just tuning up your current setup with less pre-travel/takeup, improving the reset a bit, and also have the ability to light up the trigger if so desired, but you don't have too.

I have a video of the FSS kit, I'll shoot one real quick of the DCAEK kit and post them so you can see the differences...

 

[78Staff]

Here are the videos showing the takeup/trave/reset differences between the two kits...

Apex FSS kit and RAM...

Apex Tactical FSS / RAM - YouTube



DCAEK kit with added Aluminum Trigger...

Apex DCAEK Kit and Aluminum trigger Shield - YouTube

 

[Bkreutz]

Great information, this is exactly what I was hoping to get.

So do you think the "Duty/Carry Action Enhancement Kit" would accomplish my goals?

What would the FSS give me that the "Duty/Carry Action Enhancement Kit" would not?

If I understand your goals correctly (lessened breaking of the trigger and a shorter take up) the the Duty/Carry AEK would not accomplish your goals because the take up would not be any different than stock, to accomplish that you have to change the geometry of the trigger/sear, only the FSS kit with trigger will do that. The D/C AEK would get you a lighter trigger break depending on which springs you install. I do agree that the FSS should only be used in a competition gun and not a carry gun, but I suspect that is what you're going to use it for since a 5" Core can be somewhat difficult to conceal carry

 

[78Staff]

Maybe I've forgotten, but I thought the DCAEK kit did reduce takeup over stock - not near as much as the FSS of course, but a reduction none the less. Or maybe it's b/c I have the trigger installed also...

 

[jent]

Reducing take up is not an absolute requirement. Reducing the break is the biggest thing I want. Reducing the take up would be a _nice to have_. But if the DCAEK is what makes sense for a carry gun, that sounds like the way I should go.

I have one of the newer M&P's with a really nice reset, I assume the DCAEK wont change my reset at all?

 

[Jiman]

A FSS is OK with manual safety. Not sure if your frame can accomodate one, has it already, or if that's something you even want to deal with.

Otherwise for a carry gun the FSS take up is too short and unforgiving.

 

[rdtompki]

Reducing take up is not an absolute requirement. Reducing the break is the biggest thing I want. Reducing the take up would be a _nice to have_. But if the DCAEK is what makes sense for a carry gun, that sounds like the way I should go.

I have one of the newer M&P's with a really nice reset, I assume the DCAEK wont change my reset at all?

We have DCAEK in all four of our centerfire M&P (2-9mm and 2-.40cal) one of which had the old-style slide stop assembly. I didn't measure the travel before/after, but the reset is slightly shorter with the DCAEK and somewhat less pronounced. Reset noise is clearly overrated and I'd opt for the shorter reset every time. Trigger pull on the 9's came in right about 5 lbs. The 40's were a little bit heavier, but that could have been measurement technique. I left the stock trigger spring in three of the handguns and didn't find much of a trigger pull difference in the one gun in which I installed the Apex spring; could have resulted from my two 40's having the different versions of slide stop.

 

[jent]

Thanks for the help everyone. Just thought I would give a follow up for everyone (or anyone else searching in the future).

I ended up getting the DCAEK kit....though I did not install the entire kit.

I installed the sear that came with it, and I installed the stronger trigger spring. It did not really lighten up my pull much at all (I think I measured maybe .5lb's lighter). Though to be fair my old trigger had tons of shooting on it, so I suspect it might become a bit lighter with time as well.

Despite it not really lightening the trigger pull on the scale, it did satisfy my desires/needs for changing the trigger pull. The wall at the break is not such a strong heavy wall, but instead the pressure builds up nicely through the entire pull.

The reset was left uneffected, which is what I wanted (I felt it had a nice reset already). I can not detect any difference in it, which I am happy with.

Ultimately I did not install the striker block (USB kit). I did not feel there was a need in my case after it was all installed. My trigger pull used to be a little gritty, but with time and use that eventually completely went away. Once the trigger spring and sear were installed, I was happy, so I did not feel a need to go further.

Long story short, I am happy already. If with time and use the trigger becomes _slightly_ lighter, I wont mind. But I am already very happy with the change. Thanks for everyones help in getting me what I needed to get the results I wanted.

 

[78Staff]

Yeah, if you put 500+ rounds through it already, the USB is somewhat polished out and has probably lost all "grittiness" of a new model...

You could leave the stock trigger spring in also if you wanted a bit lighter trigger...would knock another lb or so off the pull with the Apex parts, normally.

 

[Rpg]

Folks, trigger work isn't a so it yourself job.

You need a good (GOOD) gunsmith.

Find one and talk to her/him about what's possible and what's reasonable. Then decide whether your handgun is worth the expense.

If you've located a good gunsmith, listen to what you're told.

Lots of 'drop in' parts are marketed heavily: ignor that.

Find a real gunsmith and listen to what you're told.

It's your choice, of course, but the idea that your shooting problems will be solved by some easy owner installed parts is silly (unless you are an experienced and qualified gunsmith).

Of course, if you were a good gunsmith you wouldn't be posting your question here: you'd know the answer.

 

[AGoyette]

I installed the DCAEK kit in both of our carry guns and added the polymer trigger. Adding the polymer trigger reduced the take up about 30% over the stock trigger. I left in the stock trigger spring on both guns. Both guns now have a much nicer carry trigger IMO. For our competition guns I put the FSS kits in. I got the trigger pull down to 2.5 to 3 lbs. on them. People are amazed when they fell the trigger on our competition guns. They ask who did the trigger, and I proudly say I did it. (Though I did have the gunsmith install the USB). Installing the Apex parts myself taught me a lot about my gun.

 

[dajogejr]

I have the DCAEK in my 40c. My girl has a box stock, newer 9c.
It doesn't reduce the take up...however, due to the smoothing out of the break AND reduce in weight, it feels like the distance is reduced.

Get the DCAEK it and be happy.