Air Marshal ammo

[BrianE]

Fellow LEOs...

Please think twice about the information you are discussing on a Public Forum.
Remember the paperwork you signed when you went through the FAA class.
Although we are friendly on this forum we have no idea where the information ends up.

In no way am I being a smart ***, so please dont take this the wrong way, but why does it matter if an LEO tells what kind of gun and ammo he/she is carrying? Is there certain types of agencies where its a "secret"? I see FBI/secret service where its a mystery...

 

[GerSan69]

>In no way am I being a smart ***, so please dont take this the wrong way, but why does it matter if an LEO tells what kind of gun and ammo he/she is carrying? Is there certain types of agencies where its a "secret"? I see FBI/secret service where its a mystery..<

"They" tell you that everything is an operational secret and they pinky swear all non-members to secrecy before revealing anything. Having been "burned" many years in the past for talking about stuff that I truly thought was benign, I don't talk about the stuff I see and hear, either.
I won't even comment on what I think of the policy!

 

[UKRsoldier]

The "smoking rivet" effect is caused by the rivet being loose in the hole and working away at the aluminum skin. Tar & nicotine may cause cancer in humans but they have nothing to do with smoking rivets on airplanes.

That's true. The one place where you will find evidence of nicotine is on the outflow valve of the pressurization system. A&P school taught me that

 

[shawn mccarver]

Since when is the type of pistol or ammo paid for by taxpayers and carried by a civilian employee* of the government a "state secret?"

Last I heard, such information not only MAY be disclosed, it MUST be disclosed upon request under the "sunshine" or "freedom of information" type laws.

*Agents of the FBI, DEA, ATF, Air Mrashals, Secret Service, and all of the other federal, state and local law enforcement agencies are CIVILIANS (unless of course, a particular agent happens to actually be on active duty in the military).

 

[Doug M.]

Shawn, that varies from state to state and the feds are not near as open with info as many states are. I work in WA, which is generally considered 2nd only to Florida in terms of the broad nature of public records law and access to records. Ammo choice is no secret here, although the AAGs doing state agency records are often confused by the request. It would not surprise me if that info is not lawfully available, even if well known, with regard to some agencies in some states or the federal government.

However, what Mike was talking about is the "flying armed" class, which may well NOT be subject to disclosure and could in fact be restricted info, categorized as FOUO or more restrictively.

 

[Mike Grasso]

However, what Mike was talking about is the "flying armed" class, which may well NOT be subject to disclosure and could in fact be restricted info, categorized as FOUO or more restrictively.

Exactly. The type of ammunition is mildly interesting. The tactics and characteristics of those tactics are FOUO. I was reminding the LEO of his faux pas.

Mike

PS - To answer the numerous PMs about right to know, citizens right and such. There is a reason for TS/SCI, not every piece of information is known to the general public, even officers/agents are SCI'd. But that aside, equipment is one arguable point but the tactics to keep people and LEOs alive are not. Thank You for understanding.

 

[Chillock]

Since when is the type of pistol or ammo paid for by taxpayers and carried by a civilian employee* of the government a "state secret?"

Last I heard, such information not only MAY be disclosed, it MUST be disclosed upon request under the "sunshine" or "freedom of information" type laws.

Shawn, You said it yourself. "disclosed upon request" in following the rules/regulations regarding request for disclosure, the request must be in writing and follow proper channels to gain requested information. What we think is "public knowledge" or "public right to know" is all good... but proper channels must be followed.

I have worked jobs before where most information was public knowledge, catch was, part of the employee manual said we as employees were not allowed to discuss, confirm or deny the information.

 

[OldAFVet]

I was flying first class last year and was the first to board. There was a young man already seated a few rows back and I figured he was a marshal.

My son is a federal agent (won't mention the agency but not air marshal) who flies armed and also boards first.

 

[Doug M.]

Which is a bad protocol, in that it allows a reasonably observant offender to discern the presence or lack of an armed LEO.

 

[hotrod150]

......The tactics and characteristics of those tactics are FOUO. I was reminding the LEO of his faux pas. .... There is a reason for TS/SCI, not every piece of information is known to the general public, even officers/agents are SCI'd.......

What do FOUO, TS, & SCI/SCI'd mean?

 

[Doug M.]

FOUO: For Official Use Only.
TS: Top Secret.
SCI: Secure Compartmentalized Information (I think; not sure on that one).

Different categories of sensitive information and the manner in which they can be used/distributed. One must have both the clearance to have some information, and also the need - hence SCI.

 

[Marshal Sam Holland]

Fellow LEOs...

Please think twice about the information you are discussing on a Public Forum.
Remember the paperwork you signed when you went through the FAA class.
Although we are friendly on this forum we have no idea where the information ends up.

I agree, since 9/11 the world as we know it has changed. I've been retired for about 8 years, but was working when 9/11 occured. I was with a state LE agency, and quickly called our director in the state capitol city. He said get my bag ready, with 3 days worth of BDU's and wait. Nothing else happened to cause us to report in, but when I asked him later what were we to do after 3 days, he said clothing was not a problem. Being a state employee, the Governor was at top of chain of command. The governor also being commander in chief of the state National Guard, clothing was not a problem.
I flew about 6 years after 9/11, and although I was flying unarmed, I observed a couple of "persons of interest" while boarding. The Captain came through and I asked for a minute of his time. I explained that I was a LEO ( even displayed some cerdentials to him) and that I was unarmed, but if anything came up during the flight, that he could depend on me for what ever. He thanked me and took note of my seat number from my ticket. It was an uneventful flight, thankfully.
Just my two cents worth...

 

[KEN L]

Are there still Air Marshall's?

Of course there are. Liam Neeson just played one in a movie! Geez man, aren't you paying attention?

 

[jdh]

Of course there are. Liam Neeson just played one in a movie! Geez man, aren't you paying attention?

So there are still Jedi also. (dammit didn't pay attention to the thread date, sorry about that.)

 

[DavidWJ]

Potassium-40 in the human body is easily detectable. If someone added a radioactive element to bullets it would not have to be dangerous to be detectable. It's not a particularly good idea to "tag" the bad guys if a plane crashes, their pieces would be so scattered that they won't be identifiable.

 

[Whitwabit]

Fellow LEOs...

Please think twice about the information you are discussing on a Public Forum.
Remember the paperwork you signed when you went through the FAA class.
Although we are friendly on this forum we have no idea where the information ends up.

The TSA has said that gun and ammo info was not SSI (Sensitive Security Information) ..

Sig Sauer's decision to publicize its contract. "The information in the Sig Sauer press release is based on publicly available information ! And if you look on the web you will find that the TSA released is own manual .. So nothing talked about here is sensitive !!

 

[Kparkslpn77]

Unfortunately this was done already although not with a gun but we do know that a person can be sucked out of a hole that is smaller than the window.

Now there's a thought for mythbusters.

Put everyone in parachutes and oxygen gear (just in case), and take a pressurized airplane up to 30,000 feet or so, and then take a 12 gauge and blow a hole in the wall. Better yet, blow out a window.

See if anyone gets sucked out.

 

[03hemi]

Now there's a thought for mythbusters.

Put everyone in parachutes and oxygen gear (just in case), and take a pressurized airplane up to 30,000 feet or so, and then take a 12 gauge and blow a hole in the wall. Better yet, blow out a window.

See if anyone gets sucked out.

Or you could just ask your next door neighbor who's a Captain with Delta and ex military pilot

 

[rich5674]

sounds right to me

Which is a bad protocol, in that it allows a reasonably observant offender to discern the presence or lack of an armed LEO.

I'm not the sharpest tool, LEO nor criminal but thats one of a few flags that comes to my attention when I enter airplane or public place

 

[Doug M.]

Our military friends are familiar with the Good Idea Fairy. Sadly, a lot of LE "managers" (they are not leaders, and are often not even good managers; they just rose to the top of the septic tank by floating above the other chunks of excrement through various means) have spent far too much time with the Good Idea Fairy and a variety of hallucinogens. I have seen some really appalling stuff done and said.

A real fun time when looking at policies is to ask what research and validation was done when developing said policies, especially legal research. It's a good way to have dead silence and be stared at as if something is growing out of your forehead. A friend of mine just did that in a meeting regarding a use of force issue. It ended right then, because not one command officer present had a clue.

Skylining that LEO on the plane should be a discipline issue. Heck, when my county adopted ID badges years ago (when I worked there before), every attorney in the office pointed it was unsafe and created liability because it showed which people were worth targeting. That concept had not occurred to a single person involved. My boss exempted us as we are part of a separate elected office.

 

[ken158]

They do carry the Speer Gold Dot 125 grain JHP in .357Sig. I am pretty sure that they are not carrying the 250, but of their traditional DA/SA models. I do not recall, but I think it's a 229. One of the guys I met at an EAG class a few years ago is a FAM, and he swapped a .40 barrel into his issue gun so he could shoot more cheaply since he had to use his own ammo.

This is correct. Sig 229 in 357Sig and Gold Dots. Yes, they are still flying...

 

[jimmyj]

IIRC (?) when the "Sky Marshall Era" began Elmer Keith recommended caliber .455 British

 

[jmace57]

They've been carrying SIG pistols (can't remember which model) in 357SIG for quite a few years now, the ammo is standard production Speer Gold Dot.

My nephew is an armed flight officer (Federal Flight Deck Officer), and this is what the government provides.

 

[DWalt]

I never really liked flying. I can't imagine what it would be like to have my rear end stuck in a typical coach class airline passenger seat all day every day. I assume the FFDOs don't fly first class.

 

[Hunter8282]

Apparently the notion of explosive decompression sucking someone out a porthole or through a bullet hole is overdone a bit on TV. The plane are engineered to fly with a few holes in them.

You mean like this incident where a window blows out and a women is partially sucked out of the airplane?

Woman Partially Sucked Out of Jet When Window Breaks Mid-Flight; Plane Makes Emergency Landing in Philadelphia - NBC 10 Philadelphia

 

[Doug M.]

I never really liked flying. I can't imagine what it would be like to have my rear end stuck in a typical coach class airline passenger seat all day every day. I assume the FFDOs don't fly first class.

**
FFDOs are the armed pilots. I suspect Air Marshals are seated in various places in a plane, which hopefully allows for taking their size into account.

The bigger problem is that as of the last I knew, the boneheads in their top ranks required them to dress in business attire as if they were assigned to an office in DC. That is not how one blends in on an airplane, which for their role is utterly critical.

 

[smoothshooter]

Um, that would be a 'no'. Any radioactive anything which is strong enough for that would cause radiation sickness and death.
-edit- I didn't get that you were probably joking.

Transport aircraft are equipped with equipment that will enable them to be found, and 'evil doers' will be easy to track down; they are the ones with .40cal bullet holes in them

Bullets don't do much.

A US Airways pilot shot his aircraft by accident a few years ago, no fuss no muss.

These things are pressurized to over 8psi, and the engines pump vast amount of air into the cabin, so much so that there are huge valves that vent out the excess.

A <.4 inch hole has absolutely zero effect.

During the smoking days, loose rivets were usually detected by "smoking rivets" not because the rivets were smoking, but because leaky rivets left brown streaks of nicotine and tar!

Airplanes, even pressurized ones, are full of holes.

The biggest dangers related to firing a handgun in an airliner is the bullet hitting and severing oxygen lines, wiring bundles associated with servos and engines, and critical parts of the engines themselves ( such as compressor turbine blades ).

 

[HardToHandle]

**
FFDOs are the armed pilots. I suspect Air Marshals are seated in various places in a plane, which hopefully allows for taking their size into account.

The bigger problem is that as of the last I knew, the boneheads in their top ranks required them to dress in business attire as if they were assigned to an office in DC. That is not how one blends in on an airplane, which for their role is utterly critical.

Fake news. There was a period when it was easy to make the FAMS, but no more. Also, folks in first or business class more often than not look nicely dressed. Steerage class on a discount airline looks like 2am at a Walmart.

The boarding early thing... I know cops who mostly carry just to speed the security line and board early. The bad guys are not likely to be fooled by the DHS security theatre.

 

[Doug M.]

I dress the same for travel no matter where I sit - cargo pants, a T shirt (nothing about guns and stuff, of course), hiking boots (only field expedient weapon I can keep with me). As for the FAMS, I doubt it was ever easy to get on and stay on ... but the management stuff was pretty well documented in LE circles. And carrying on board for non-fed LE requires travelling on business and a bunch of procedural steps that would not be worth it to speed boarding - which as a way of skylining yourself is bad practice anyway.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

I heard the first 2 bullets are coated with radio active material, so if (God forbid) they have to shoot and the flight crashes,, the authorities will be able to find the "evil doers'".

I like that. It's very "internet." Taken seriously by some in NYC or Ann Arbor, or possibly some "inner city" gathering sites of terminal alcoholics.