Air Marshal ammo

[WC145]

Several years ago I went through the "LEO Flying Armed" class. No need for any special ammo, holes in the fuselage were not an issue, the pressurizing system would compensate for them and, as has been noted, planes are pretty leaky already.

The three things they emphasized were:
a. ********************************************************
b. ********************************************************
c. ********************************************************

 

[therevjay]

Now there's a thought for mythbusters.

Put everyone in parachutes and oxygen gear (just in case), and take a pressurized airplane up to 30,000 feet or so, and then take a 12 gauge and blow a hole in the wall. Better yet, blow out a window.

See if anyone gets sucked out.

I'm pretty sure "Mythbusters " did this one.

 

[Calaveras Slim]

Several years ago, I talked to a friend of mine who was with the FBI and worked with Air Marshalls. He told me they carried P226's in 357 Sig. As do a number of Texas Rangers.

 

[hotrod150]

......During the smoking days, loose rivets were usually detected by "smoking rivets" not because the rivets were smoking, but because leaky rivets left brown streaks of nicotine and tar!.....

The "smoking rivet" effect is caused by the rivet being loose in the hole and working away at the aluminum skin. Tar & nicotine may cause cancer in humans but they have nothing to do with smoking rivets on airplanes.

 

[FlyFish]

These things are pressurized to over 8psi, and the engines pump vast amount of air into the cabin, so much so that there are huge valves that vent out the excess.

A <.4 inch hole has absolutely zero effect.

Exactly. I recall reading on a seemingly authoritative airline site a while back that a 747 can maintain cabin pressure with 3 entire windows missing. (Wouldn't want to be sitting next to one of those missing windows, though!)

 

[Neumann]

You might have some problems, as a civilian, with some frangible ammunition made of tungsten particles. Although it is definitely not "armor piercing," some states, like Illinois, defines it as such because tungsten is much harder than lead or copper.

 

[DWalt]

A lot of the explosive decompression myth regarding shooting a hole in the fuselage of an airplane at altitude came from the old James Bond 007 movie "Goldfinger."

I have some experience in Air Marshal armament, but it's very dated - over 10 years ago. I don't know their current practices.

 

[Alpha426]

A few holes in an airplane fuselage would mean nothing, and even if the airplane somehow completely lost cabin pressure, it would stay flying and no one would die.

It's not the holes that are the problems with the aircraft falling out of the sky. It's the bullets hitting the hydraulics and electronics that control the aircraft that, when damaged, could cause the aircraft to fall out of the sky.

 

[skypilot7103]

While flying on the C9-A Nightingale in the early seventies carried sub nose S&W 38 with three rounds bean bag plastic nose and three rounds hollow point. You figure out the first three out the pipe.

 

[Mike Grasso]

Fellow LEOs...

Please think twice about the information you are discussing on a Public Forum.
Remember the paperwork you signed when you went through the FAA class.
Although we are friendly on this forum we have no idea where the information ends up.

 

[BrianE]

Fellow LEOs...

Please think twice about the information you are discussing on a Public Forum.
Remember the paperwork you signed when you went through the FAA class.
Although we are friendly on this forum we have no idea where the information ends up.

In no way am I being a smart ***, so please dont take this the wrong way, but why does it matter if an LEO tells what kind of gun and ammo he/she is carrying? Is there certain types of agencies where its a "secret"? I see FBI/secret service where its a mystery...

 

[GerSan69]

>In no way am I being a smart ***, so please dont take this the wrong way, but why does it matter if an LEO tells what kind of gun and ammo he/she is carrying? Is there certain types of agencies where its a "secret"? I see FBI/secret service where its a mystery..<

"They" tell you that everything is an operational secret and they pinky swear all non-members to secrecy before revealing anything. Having been "burned" many years in the past for talking about stuff that I truly thought was benign, I don't talk about the stuff I see and hear, either.
I won't even comment on what I think of the policy!

 

[UKRsoldier]

The "smoking rivet" effect is caused by the rivet being loose in the hole and working away at the aluminum skin. Tar & nicotine may cause cancer in humans but they have nothing to do with smoking rivets on airplanes.

That's true. The one place where you will find evidence of nicotine is on the outflow valve of the pressurization system. A&P school taught me that

 

[shawn mccarver]

Since when is the type of pistol or ammo paid for by taxpayers and carried by a civilian employee* of the government a "state secret?"

Last I heard, such information not only MAY be disclosed, it MUST be disclosed upon request under the "sunshine" or "freedom of information" type laws.

*Agents of the FBI, DEA, ATF, Air Mrashals, Secret Service, and all of the other federal, state and local law enforcement agencies are CIVILIANS (unless of course, a particular agent happens to actually be on active duty in the military).

 

[Doug M.]

Shawn, that varies from state to state and the feds are not near as open with info as many states are. I work in WA, which is generally considered 2nd only to Florida in terms of the broad nature of public records law and access to records. Ammo choice is no secret here, although the AAGs doing state agency records are often confused by the request. It would not surprise me if that info is not lawfully available, even if well known, with regard to some agencies in some states or the federal government.

However, what Mike was talking about is the "flying armed" class, which may well NOT be subject to disclosure and could in fact be restricted info, categorized as FOUO or more restrictively.

 

[Mike Grasso]

However, what Mike was talking about is the "flying armed" class, which may well NOT be subject to disclosure and could in fact be restricted info, categorized as FOUO or more restrictively.

Exactly. The type of ammunition is mildly interesting. The tactics and characteristics of those tactics are FOUO. I was reminding the LEO of his faux pas.

Mike

PS - To answer the numerous PMs about right to know, citizens right and such. There is a reason for TS/SCI, not every piece of information is known to the general public, even officers/agents are SCI'd. But that aside, equipment is one arguable point but the tactics to keep people and LEOs alive are not. Thank You for understanding.

 

[Chillock]

Since when is the type of pistol or ammo paid for by taxpayers and carried by a civilian employee* of the government a "state secret?"

Last I heard, such information not only MAY be disclosed, it MUST be disclosed upon request under the "sunshine" or "freedom of information" type laws.

Shawn, You said it yourself. "disclosed upon request" in following the rules/regulations regarding request for disclosure, the request must be in writing and follow proper channels to gain requested information. What we think is "public knowledge" or "public right to know" is all good... but proper channels must be followed.

I have worked jobs before where most information was public knowledge, catch was, part of the employee manual said we as employees were not allowed to discuss, confirm or deny the information.

 

[OldAFVet]

I was flying first class last year and was the first to board. There was a young man already seated a few rows back and I figured he was a marshal.

My son is a federal agent (won't mention the agency but not air marshal) who flies armed and also boards first.

 

[Doug M.]

Which is a bad protocol, in that it allows a reasonably observant offender to discern the presence or lack of an armed LEO.

 

[hotrod150]

......The tactics and characteristics of those tactics are FOUO. I was reminding the LEO of his faux pas. .... There is a reason for TS/SCI, not every piece of information is known to the general public, even officers/agents are SCI'd.......

What do FOUO, TS, & SCI/SCI'd mean?