Expensive Phone Call

[olfart]

My wife gave me a kiss on her way out the door going to her doctor's appointment this afternoon. About 20 minutes later, I got THE CALL. "Hey, the car broke down. I'm in town at 59 and 77."

"OK, I'll be right there."

Setting a new land speed record, I was there 15 minutes later, and told her to get in the truck. She said she already postponed her appointment, then explained, "I stopped at the stop sign and pulled out onto the highway, and the engine died. I coasted to the side and restarted it, and it limped a block or two, but I couldn't get over 20 mph."

"OK, so swap with me and follow me down to the repair shop." We were only a few blocks from a somewhat reputable car repair place I've used before, so I started in that direction with her following in the truck. As advertised, the car wouldn't go over 20 mph, and it tapered off from that to near nothing. I pulled off the road and called my insurance company to arrange a tow.

I never got to speak to a human. After inputting my ID on the phone, I received a text telling me to click on the link and follow the instructions. Oh, goody... after 15 - 20 minutes of diddling with the phone, they finally dispatched a tow truck... from 60 miles away.

In the meantime, my wife had killed the truck. When I told her to go somewhere cool and sit while I wait for the tow truck, she said, " The truck won't start." Apparently the 5-yr-old battery I had been meaning to replace chose that time to go to battery heaven (or hell).

One of our neighbors was passing and stopped to offer help, so I got him to jump the truck off, then sent my wife in the truck to Walmart to get a new battery installed. A few minutes later, she called to say it would be 2 hours before she could get a battery installed at Walmart. Someone there suggested she go to Auto Zone, so I approved that and sent her on her way. Auto Zone fixed her right up for only $186, and she made it back before the tow truck got there.

The tow truck arrived an hour and 20 minutes after my call to the insurance company, and he very efficiently and quickly loaded the car up and hauled it to the shop. I went inside to make arrangements with the shop owner, and we left it in his care.

When I got home, the shop owner called and said the upper catalytic converter had apparently emptied its bowels into the lower catalytic converter, plugging the exhaust. He said he'd probably have to replace both. He won't know until tomorrow morning what the cost of that will be, but I'm hoping it will be cheaper than a new car.

 

[Rustywrench]

Oh, sorry to hear that. " When it rains, it pours" ...Hope it all turns out not too expensive. Sometimes I think we should go back to horses...

 

[greenwellg]

Sounds like a symptom of something that is making the guts of the converter melt. Typically running way too rich. Don't let them just slap a converter on it then say no warranty when the replacement does exactly the same thing. Find the original source problem. The second converter should be OK a visual inspection will confirm that. Could also be a serious misfire that is dumping raw fuel into the exhaust. It takes a lot to melt a converter.

 

[greenwellg]

Make and model?
If it's fuel injected suspect a leaking pressure regulator dumping raw fuel into the manifold.
Old style pressure regulators are operated by manifold vacuum. If the regulator diaphragm is leaking raw fuel is being pumped into the intake manifold.
Other causes could be a temperature sender is open circuited and telling the engine it's 50 degrees below 0.
Knowing the specific system is absolutely critical (type of fuel injection).

 

[GaryS]

At least you got a tow truck. I was in an accident in early 2023. I called my insurance company from the scene and filed the claim. Since I had towing insurance they offered to send a tow. Great, thanks!

No two came in an hour, so I called back. The lady on the phone put me on hold and told me that they would have someone on the way shortly. An hour later I called back again. Same story.

I did some on line sleuthing and found out that there is a company that runs most of the towing and road side assistance for insurance companies. I forget the name off hand, but the reviews were horrible. Turns out that they don't own any service or tow trucks. They don't contract with any of those either. What they do is start calling service and tow companies in the area and see if they'll take the low ball rate the company offers. Apparently that day, no one would. Luckily my truck was actually drivable if I kept of the highway.

This was kind of silly of me as I also have AAA. They would have sent someone right out.

Live and learn.

 

[greenwellg]

Post the symptoms on a relevant forum and see what answers you get. Year, make, model and engine type should get you close. Chances are very good it has happened to many before you. Knowledge is crucial. Then you can compare the diagnosis to the information from another source. If they match then you have good information. I'll keep an eye on this thread and help if I can. 60k hours experience here from bodywork in April 1969, to running my own Z car specialty shop until I retired 25 years ago. Even painted 300 cars but that sure is not your problem.

 

[olfart]

Make and model?
If it's fuel injected suspect a leaking pressure regulator dumping raw fuel into the manifold.
Old style pressure regulators are operated by manifold vacuum. If the regulator diaphragm is leaking raw fuel is being pumped into the intake manifold.
Other causes could be a temperature sender is open circuited and telling the engine it's 50 degrees below 0.
Knowing the specific system is absolutely critical (type of fuel injection).

It's a 2017 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport 2.4L. We bought it used with 100,000 miles on it and a shot engine, but the dealer got the factory to replace the engine on a recall. That was about 39,000 miles ago. It is fuel injected, but I have no idea what type.

 

[Tom S.]

As soon as I finished the 3rd paragraph, I thought catalytic convertor. What your wife described is the classic symptom.

 

[Yendor357]

I used to pull trailers for UPS. I saw more Hyundais and KIAs dead along side the road than everything else put together.

Everything I've ever heard or read, once those cars get over 5 years old, and are approaching 100K, get rid of them.

A boring old Camry or a Corolla are still pretty hard to beat.

 

[LVSteve]

Research says that year and model have a direct injection motor.

 

[taz666]

Emissions tests in Texas?
If not, cut cats off and infill section with pipe.

 

[LVSteve]

Emissions tests in Texas?
If not, cut cats off and infill section with pipe.

That only works if somebody has the smarts to recode the engine ECU to deal with that hack.

 

[venomballistics]

That only works if somebody has the smarts to recode the engine ECU to deal with that hack.

that is correct ... we now have multiple O2 sensors in the stream to sniff before and after the cat.
When the downstream doesn't see a difference, it will pitch a fit.

 

[Sevens]

Hey! You got off easy!

I read this:

My wife gave me a kiss on her way out the door going to her doctor's appointment this afternoon. About 20 minutes later, I got THE CALL

…and thought the next words were gonna be "I'm pregnant!"

 

[GaryS]

It depends on which county you live in. There are 16 that still have emissions only inspections.

Emissions tests in Texas?
If not, cut cats off and infill section with pipe.

 

[olfart]

Hey! You got off easy!

I read this:

…and thought the next words were gonna be "I'm pregnant!"

With her being 77 and me 84, that WOULD have been a shocker!

 

[6518John]

When I got home, the shop owner called and said the upper catalytic converter had apparently emptied its bowels into the lower catalytic converter, plugging the exhaust. He said he'd probably have to replace both. He won't know until tomorrow morning what the cost of that will be, but I'm hoping it will be cheaper than a new car.

There are some boys up in the hills north of here that can have that catalytic converter off quicker than you can say "got crystal!"

 

[greenwellg]

The bad engine is probably a contributor to what caused the failed catalytic converter. In the process of dying the first engine dropped a lot of stuff into the exhaust system. Those engines with direct injection had a terrible reputation for self-destructing and using a lot of oil. See if the repair shop says anything about a check engine light if one was on. That light should come on when you turn on the ignition then go out shortly after that (self testing mode). Let us know what they tell you.

 

[Yendor357]

I don't know about cars, but on motorcycles, the 02 sensors can be removed and a "dongle" that produced the correct resistance, can be plugged in its place, thus fooling the computer into thinking everything is ok.

Or if it runs ok without the cats, just deal with the check engine light on the dash.

Rid yourself of the Hyundai. Don't go to Walmart for car repairs.
If you need funds for new-to-you Toyota, I will be glad to buy a few nice old Smiths in order to help raise funds. I'm such a nice guy.

 

['79 Magnum GT]

I used to pull trailers for UPS. I saw more Hyundais and KIAs dead along side the road than everything else put together.

Everything I've ever heard or read, once those cars get over 5 years old, and are approaching 100K, get rid of them.

A boring old Camry or a Corolla are still pretty hard to beat.

I had my 2007 Hyundai Accent GL for 18.5 years with over 117600 miles on it. Bought it new. The gas tank developed a leak. After all that time the mechanic said it wouldn't be prudent to put more money into it. I definitely got my monies worth. A great little car, traded it in on a 2025 Hyundai Elantra SE, I hope that is half as good as my Accent.

Rick

 

[olfart]

The bad engine is probably a contributor to what caused the failed catalytic converter. In the process of dying the first engine dropped a lot of stuff into the exhaust system. Those engines with direct injection had a terrible reputation for self-destructing and using a lot of oil. See if the repair shop says anything about a check engine light if one was on. That light should come on when you turn on the ignition then go out shortly after that (self testing mode). Let us know what they tell you.

Oh, the check engine light was on, alright. I saw that myself.

 

[greenwellg]

I know of drivers who got to 200k on the Hyundai-Kia cars but the direct injection engines were very troublesome with many replaced as yours was. I basically retired from auto repair in 1999 so not familiar with the newer systems. My recommendation is assuming you have an honest repair shop and they can get it running right without a CEL (check engine light) then keep up the maintenance and as long as the CEL stays off you should be good for some time with the converter issue resolved.
Should you sell it or keep it?
AS long as it does not become more of a money pit after the converter replacement, the rest of those vehicles seems to be reliable. If that proves to not be the case then It's time for a replacement.
Take care of the oil changes, watch the fuel mileage, use some Chevron Techron to keep the injector spray patterns optimal for longevity.
Be on the lookout for a replacement especially if it is your primary transportation. If you see a real bargain, like a garage kept Toyota Camry before 2003 with the 2.2 liter engine or after 2008 when the newer engines had the bugs out then grab it and sell this car. Check the forums on anything you are considering as a replacement. There is a lot of real junk in the used car market right now. Let us know on this thread or a new one what direction you are taking. I'll be glad to do some research. We bought a new 2016 Sorento but traded it on a Nissan Rogue but the dealership where we bought the Rogue had a lifetime warranty on the power train so that should cover the potential CVT transmission replacement.
I hope you get fair treatment and the shop concurs with my advice and will keep an eye on anything else so you can stay ahead of another expensive repair.
The advice you just got from me is exactly what I would have told on of my good customers, but it's been 25 years since I got out of the business.

 

[olfart]

I know of drivers who got to 200k on the Hyundai-Kia cars but the direct injection engines were very troublesome with many replaced as yours was. I basically retired from auto repair in 1999 so not familiar with the newer systems. My recommendation is assuming you have an honest repair shop and they can get it running right without a CEL (check engine light) then keep up the maintenance and as long as the CEL stays off you should be good for some time with the converter issue resolved.
Should you sell it or keep it?
AS long as it does not become more of a money pit after the converter replacement, the rest of those vehicles seems to be reliable. If that proves to not be the case then It's time for a replacement.
Take care of the oil changes, watch the fuel mileage, use some Chevron Techron to keep the injector spray patterns optimal for longevity.
Be on the lookout for a replacement especially if it is your primary transportation. If you see a real bargain, like a garage kept Toyota Camry before 2003 with the 2.2 liter engine or after 2008 when the newer engines had the bugs out then grab it and sell this car. Check the forums on anything you are considering as a replacement. There is a lot of real junk in the used car market right now. Let us know on this thread or a new one what direction you are taking. I'll be glad to do some research. We bought a new 2016 Sorento but traded it on a Nissan Rogue but the dealership where we bought the Rogue had a lifetime warranty on the power train so that should cover the potential CVT transmission replacement.
I hope you get fair treatment and the shop concurs with my advice and will keep an eye on anything else so you can stay ahead of another expensive repair.
The advice you just got from me is exactly what I would have told on of my good customers, but it's been 25 years since I got out of the business.

Thanks! I still have no idea what the repairs will cost, as the mechanic is snowed under. I'm tempted to tell him if he can't get to it, please recommend someone who can. Our only other transportation is a '98 Chevy truck that we've been driving for 25 years.

 

[greenwellg]

A swamped shop is most likely your best choice. We were always swamped and my customers understood that. I worked many nights to keep up with all the things that could go wrong, sometimes 7 days a week.

 

[greenwellg]

One of the best cars ever made was the Toyota Echo. If you can find one if great shape buy it. It's small simple and has the modern technology that makes it almost bulletproof. If you live where it is necessary get one with factory AC. They can last 500k miles with great maintenance, but many people think they are two small and too cheap.
No timing belt (chain) no distributor (coil overs). No valve adjustment intervals. The automatic transmissions are bulletproof. Last year made 2005. In 2006 they went with the Scion XA and XB, both would be great cars. Toyota Corollas are great cars. They would supplement your 25 year old truck to perfection.

 

[grover99]

I used to pull trailers for UPS. I saw more Hyundais and KIAs dead along side the road than everything else put together.

Everything I've ever heard or read, once those cars get over 5 years old, and are approaching 100K, get rid of them.

A boring old Camry or a Corolla are still pretty hard to beat.

I have a 23 Kia soul and just love the thing but as soon as the warranty runs out it is gone in trade for another Soul.

 

[GaryS]

A friend bought one last fall to use as a winter car as he didn't want to drive his Miata in the snow. It has about 110,000 miles on it and runs fine. It has working AC as well. Another friend is up north for the summer and is using it as his daily driver.

Toyota makes some terrific, long lasting vehicles. I see a lot of 2001-04 Camrys on the road down here in central Texas. The XLE with the V6 is supposed to be unkillable.

One of the best cars ever made was the Toyota Echo. If you can find one if great shape buy it. It's small simple and has the modern technology that makes it almost bulletproof. If you live where it is necessary get one with factory AC. They can last 500k miles with great maintenance, but many people think they are two small and too cheap.
No timing belt (chain) no distributor (coil overs). No valve adjustment intervals. The automatic transmissions are bulletproof. Last year made 2005. In 2006 they went with the Scion XA and XB, both would be great cars. Toyota Corollas are great cars. They would supplement your 25 year old truck to perfection.

I've had a number of Soul rentals over the last 10 or so years. Comfortable, plenty of room for two people, great gas mileage. They are very good rental cars, but I'd never consider buying one. As you note, as soon as the warranty is gone, so should be the car.

I have a 23 Kia soul and just love the thing but as soon as the warranty runs out it is gone in trade for another Soul.

 

[forindooruseonly]

Does it burn oil? Most late model 4 cylinders are notorious for burning oil and killing cats, due to the type of oil control rings and relatively thin oil specified by the manufacturer. This is a problem for all brands, with and without direct injection. I've seen many a Toyota and Honda suffer from the same thing. My Honda Accord was a cat killer, and I've never seen another with more than 80 or 90k not be an oil burner.

I eventually just knocked the guts out of the converter and tricked the computer with an 02 adapter and never worried about it again. However, my state doesn't have emissions tests.

If you watch South Main Auto on youtube, you'll see that it is a common problem, and in NY it means sending the car to the crusher as the costs of the cats and limited lifespan due to rust means its financially a bad idea to just fix the problem and then have it happen again down the road. To properly fix it, you would have to put new cats in, pull the motor apart and re-ring it, and that is not an repair bill any of us would want, especially in the rust belt.

 

[olfart]

Does it burn oil? Most late model 4 cylinders are notorious for burning oil and killing cats, due to the type of oil control rings and relatively thin oil specified by the manufacturer. This is a problem for all brands, with and without direct injection. I've seen many a Toyota and Honda suffer from the same thing. My Honda Accord was a cat killer, and I've never seen another with more than 80 or 90k not be an oil burner.

I eventually just knocked the guts out of the converter and tricked the computer with an 02 adapter and never worried about it again. However, my state doesn't have emissions tests.

If you watch South Main Auto on youtube, you'll see that it is a common problem, and in NY it means sending the car to the crusher as the costs of the cats and limited lifespan due to rust means its financially a bad idea to just fix the problem and then have it happen again down the road. To properly fix it, you would have to put new cats in, pull the motor apart and re-ring it, and that is not an repair bill any of us would want, especially in the rust belt.

No oil burning yet on this new engine (39,000 miles since replaced).

 

[olfart]

I know of drivers who got to 200k on the Hyundai-Kia cars but the direct injection engines were very troublesome with many replaced as yours was. I basically retired from auto repair in 1999 so not familiar with the newer systems. My recommendation is assuming you have an honest repair shop and they can get it running right without a CEL (check engine light) then keep up the maintenance and as long as the CEL stays off you should be good for some time with the converter issue resolved.
Should you sell it or keep it?
AS long as it does not become more of a money pit after the converter replacement, the rest of those vehicles seems to be reliable. If that proves to not be the case then It's time for a replacement.
Take care of the oil changes, watch the fuel mileage, use some Chevron Techron to keep the injector spray patterns optimal for longevity.
Be on the lookout for a replacement especially if it is your primary transportation. If you see a real bargain, like a garage kept Toyota Camry before 2003 with the 2.2 liter engine or after 2008 when the newer engines had the bugs out then grab it and sell this car. Check the forums on anything you are considering as a replacement. There is a lot of real junk in the used car market right now. Let us know on this thread or a new one what direction you are taking. I'll be glad to do some research. We bought a new 2016 Sorento but traded it on a Nissan Rogue but the dealership where we bought the Rogue had a lifetime warranty on the power train so that should cover the potential CVT transmission replacement.
I hope you get fair treatment and the shop concurs with my advice and will keep an eye on anything else so you can stay ahead of another expensive repair.
The advice you just got from me is exactly what I would have told on of my good customers, but it's been 25 years since I got out of the business.

I went by the shop today and stood there while the owner called his supplier and got prices on both cats. Parts and labor, $1,300 out the door. Not nearly as bad as I expected. However, I suspect he may need to change out both O2 sensors as well, so that likely will add another couple of hundred. And I told him to do an oil/filter change while he has it on the rack. A couple of days to get the parts, I may be driving it again Monday or Tuesday of next week.