Great info, thanx........
Aircrewman Revolvers
- Thread starter kwill1911
- Start date
Babalooie
US Veteran
A previous post mentioned M41 ammo and asked if it was scarce. I have over a thousand rounds. Bought it from J&G Sales several years ago. They had a lot, I'm assuming, pallets of the ammo. At the same time they had the M41, they also had surplus wadcutter ammo. I don't remember the bullet weight.
My boxes of M41 were made by Olin and simply had the description,
"50 CARTRIDGES
BALL
CALIBER .38 M41"
"WCC89K081-006"
"OLIN CORPORATION" in smaller letters.
This ammo has the following head stamp:
"WCC89"
I guess this is the closest I'll ever get to one of those M13's.
My boxes of M41 were made by Olin and simply had the description,
"50 CARTRIDGES
BALL
CALIBER .38 M41"
"WCC89K081-006"
"OLIN CORPORATION" in smaller letters.
This ammo has the following head stamp:
"WCC89"
I guess this is the closest I'll ever get to one of those M13's.
I'm looking at an intact Aircrewman, SN C275385. Is this one already in the database?
Also, this one has SN on butt, no AF #
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
Also, this one has SN on butt, no AF #
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
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kwill1911
Member
No, it is not in my database. Based on others around it I would think it shipped to Norton AFB in December, 1953 but only a Jinks letter can tell you for sure.
Hi, Kevin. Of the very earliest Baby Aircrewman sent to the US Air Force or any other US Military entity, were some of those in a commercial serial number range, and, if so ... in what SN ranges had those been documented.
Of the several Baby Aircrewman I have pursued, I just didn't get that warm and fuzzy feeling on most.
OP
kwill1911
Member
Sal,
The first shipment consisted of KA frame 6 shot revolvers numbered A.F. No. 1190 through A.F. No. 1794. Then came the "Baby" or 5 shot guns that were numbered A.F. No. 1795 through A.F. No. 2399. Perhaps there were some early prototypes made with commercial numbers but I doubt it. The ones I've seen have been fakes.
Regards,
The first shipment consisted of KA frame 6 shot revolvers numbered A.F. No. 1190 through A.F. No. 1794. Then came the "Baby" or 5 shot guns that were numbered A.F. No. 1795 through A.F. No. 2399. Perhaps there were some early prototypes made with commercial numbers but I doubt it. The ones I've seen have been fakes.
Regards,
Kevin,
For many years I had an affection for the early alloy cylinder pre-37s and pre-12s. Of the several early pre-37 airweights, I have a few in the low 2xxxx, a few in the low 30xxx, range then one as high as 42xxx (still with alloy cylinder). I have never "lettered" any of them (hoping that one day I might be joyfully surprised with the shipping info of in my later years).
I always wondered if, perhaps, a few might have been taken off the shelf and sent over for the USAF to "play" with, in a pre-contract time frame by S&W, in hopes possibly negotiating a contract.
A few of the "well used" early alloy frames present with a crack (or the beginning of a crack) on the area of the frame directly beneath the rear barrel (where it threads in). That seemed to be a weak point well into the steel cylinder versions as I have a few of those that also present with the same "crack".
I always wondered why S&W hadn't left the frame a bit thicker in that area, by reducing the height of the swing out crane by a few millimeters on those models. It is amazing just how "thin" the frames are in this, specific, area.
Surprisingly I have never encountered an early alloy cylinder model with even a slightly damaged cylinder, just the damaged frames directly center (6 o'clock position) of where the barrel threads into the frame.
For many years I had an affection for the early alloy cylinder pre-37s and pre-12s. Of the several early pre-37 airweights, I have a few in the low 2xxxx, a few in the low 30xxx, range then one as high as 42xxx (still with alloy cylinder). I have never "lettered" any of them (hoping that one day I might be joyfully surprised with the shipping info of in my later years).
I always wondered if, perhaps, a few might have been taken off the shelf and sent over for the USAF to "play" with, in a pre-contract time frame by S&W, in hopes possibly negotiating a contract.
A few of the "well used" early alloy frames present with a crack (or the beginning of a crack) on the area of the frame directly beneath the rear barrel (where it threads in). That seemed to be a weak point well into the steel cylinder versions as I have a few of those that also present with the same "crack".
I always wondered why S&W hadn't left the frame a bit thicker in that area, by reducing the height of the swing out crane by a few millimeters on those models. It is amazing just how "thin" the frames are in this, specific, area.
Surprisingly I have never encountered an early alloy cylinder model with even a slightly damaged cylinder, just the damaged frames directly center (6 o'clock position) of where the barrel threads into the frame.
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Green Frog
Member
I know this is a little bit of thread drift and slap my wrist if I'm being bad, but can you imagine how cool this all-aluminum format would have been in a slightly less enthusiastic caliber, say 32 S&W Long or even 22 LR? Just the thought of it makes my froggie heart go pitter pat! An all-aluminum Baby Chief sized kit gun would be awesome.
Oh well, a guy can dream, can't he?
Froggie
Oh well, a guy can dream, can't he?
Froggie
opoefc
US Veteran
Charlie, Thanks for reviving Kevin's great research & info on the Aircrewman S&Ws. " Back to the Top" things like this can get new info from readers who have reently joned the Forum. (PS: I'm in the market for any demilled Baby A/Cs anyone want's to sell. I applaud Kevin's work but don't agree with Kevin that restorations, using original parts, are fakes, if they are properly labled as restorations. As rare as the Baby A/Cs are, few collectors will get to own a 100% original one, but maybe a restoration is possible. If I recall right, the last auction sale of an original went the $50K range . Ed.
Regarding the M41 ammo, even after the removal of the alloy guns from service, I believe the Air Force kept this as a standard issue load for many years.
In fact if I recall the Air Force specifically developed a hotter load in the 70's or 80's due to complaints about the weak performance of the M41
In fact if I recall the Air Force specifically developed a hotter load in the 70's or 80's due to complaints about the weak performance of the M41
Thanks for the cheat sheet, kwill1911. That one went to the printer for the library. I've been able to hold on to a box of M41 and two boxes of
SPECIAL, TRACER
CAL. .38, 120 GRAIN, from Remington Arms, Inc.
We carried some for signaling in case we ran out of pen gun flares. I don't know when they were manufactured. Head stamp just says REM UMC 38 SPL The boxes have lot numbers that are very close to each other.
SPECIAL, TRACER
CAL. .38, 120 GRAIN, from Remington Arms, Inc.
We carried some for signaling in case we ran out of pen gun flares. I don't know when they were manufactured. Head stamp just says REM UMC 38 SPL The boxes have lot numbers that are very close to each other.
Seven High
Member
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I fail to understand the rationale for requesting that the revolvers be produced with an aluminum frame and cylinder. The steel frame revolvers didn't weight that much more.
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kwill1911
Member
Please allow me to address a few of the comments/questions that have come up:
1. The M41 ammo was anemic. The high velocity stuff developed was PGU-12B and had a 130 grain bullet. There were tracer/signal rounds, AMU wadcutter ammo, standard velocity and probably some other loads I'm forgetting.
2. Why, indeed, would a few ounces on a revolver make any difference in a multi-ton aircraft? The Aircrewman revolvers came online about the same time that jet fighters and ejection seat technology did. The Air Force was worried about a hunk of metal laying on a pilot's chest when they punched out. They figured aluminum would hurt less than steel. Military intelligence.
3. One of the big auction houses has some USAF guns, including some Aircrewman revolvers, coming up soon. At least 2-3 of them are spurious. Compare the numbers and features to the cheat sheet.
1. The M41 ammo was anemic. The high velocity stuff developed was PGU-12B and had a 130 grain bullet. There were tracer/signal rounds, AMU wadcutter ammo, standard velocity and probably some other loads I'm forgetting.
2. Why, indeed, would a few ounces on a revolver make any difference in a multi-ton aircraft? The Aircrewman revolvers came online about the same time that jet fighters and ejection seat technology did. The Air Force was worried about a hunk of metal laying on a pilot's chest when they punched out. They figured aluminum would hurt less than steel. Military intelligence.
3. One of the big auction houses has some USAF guns, including some Aircrewman revolvers, coming up soon. At least 2-3 of them are spurious. Compare the numbers and features to the cheat sheet.
I never considered the ejection seat aspect of objects strapped to the pilot.
While I've never been in an ejection seat trainer, I know several people who have, one who was transferred out of the OV-1/Mohawk because of a bad back. A 1911 or anything else strapped to a survival vest become very heavy during that flash acceleration. Even an additional 4 ounces adds considerably to the load. Still, I would rather have something more substantial than an Aircrewman when I got my feet on the ground.
While I've never been in an ejection seat trainer, I know several people who have, one who was transferred out of the OV-1/Mohawk because of a bad back. A 1911 or anything else strapped to a survival vest become very heavy during that flash acceleration. Even an additional 4 ounces adds considerably to the load. Still, I would rather have something more substantial than an Aircrewman when I got my feet on the ground.
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kwill1911
Member
I'm bringing this old thread to life because the Aircrewman database is now available to S&WCA members. Check it out: Databases – Smith & Wesson Collectors Association
Somewhere out there is one my dad TIG welded and scrubbed all the markings from back in the 1960s during Viet Nam. He was working construction and a co-worker brought it to him to "fix" it and make it clean. He said that when he finished with it, you would never know that it was a former service revolver. I think that it had a cracked cylinder.
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"USAF medallion in stocks, right stock serial numbered..."
Hello Kevin,
Thank you for creating the "Aircrewman Cheat Sheet" and sharing it with the masses. I have learned a lot by reading and re-reading your detailed descriptions of these interesting models. Especially, the section concerning prevalence of "fakes" on the market.
That said, what are the chances these mini Magna 'I' or 'J' frame round butt stocks, bearing serial number 570783, are genuine? Or, could someone over the last +71 years have salvaged a pair of USAF medallions and added them to this pair of mini Magnas?
Many thanks!
Mike
Hello Kevin,
Thank you for creating the "Aircrewman Cheat Sheet" and sharing it with the masses. I have learned a lot by reading and re-reading your detailed descriptions of these interesting models. Especially, the section concerning prevalence of "fakes" on the market.
That said, what are the chances these mini Magna 'I' or 'J' frame round butt stocks, bearing serial number 570783, are genuine? Or, could someone over the last +71 years have salvaged a pair of USAF medallions and added them to this pair of mini Magnas?
Many thanks!
Mike
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kwill1911
Member
Mike,
I think your theory about the medallions being replaced on those is correct.
I think your theory about the medallions being replaced on those is correct.
I agree!
The medallions have numerous marks on them front and back indicating they were removed and reinstalled.
In addition the serial # is from the .32 Hand Ejector serial range!
The medallions have numerous marks on them front and back indicating they were removed and reinstalled.
In addition the serial # is from the .32 Hand Ejector serial range!
Hair Trigger
US Veteran
What was the USAF's replacement for the M13 Aircrewman? Was it the Model 12 M&P Airweight?
When I was in the USAF as a Flight Nurse, we were issued a small revolver to be worn inside our flight suit in a shoulder holster something like the M7 Tanker, but smaller. This was only for medivac missions into a potential danger area (Panama during Just Cause, or Saudi Arabia during Desert Storm) I was not an afficianado of S&W's back then, all I remember was it was a 6-shot, square butt with magna sized stocks, 2" barrel and was .38 Special. Seems like it had adjustable rear sight, but not 100% sure. What would that have been?
When I was in the USAF as a Flight Nurse, we were issued a small revolver to be worn inside our flight suit in a shoulder holster something like the M7 Tanker, but smaller. This was only for medivac missions into a potential danger area (Panama during Just Cause, or Saudi Arabia during Desert Storm) I was not an afficianado of S&W's back then, all I remember was it was a 6-shot, square butt with magna sized stocks, 2" barrel and was .38 Special. Seems like it had adjustable rear sight, but not 100% sure. What would that have been?
