Airline reminder

A few more points about flying with firearms, and I'll do my best to keep it short. I'm not a lawyer, but I have flow over two dozen times with firearms, and I've learned a few lessons.

I always print out the latest regulations from the TSA and the latest rules from the airline. The airlines can be, but usually aren't, more restrictive than the TSA. The only airline I know for sure doesn't allow firearms and ammunition in the same case is Jet Blue.

If you are bringing ammunition with you, the FAA allows 11 pounds maximum. I don't know why the picked 11, but that's the number.

As I said in my previous post never use TSA approved locks. It's just an invitation to have your guns stolen by someone, usually a baggage handler.

When you check your firearms, the airline will probably ask you to fill out the "orange" card, then the counter agent will fill in a bit more. Make sure you put your cell phone number on the card. Answering my phone saved me a major hassle one time, so I always make sure that it's legible.

They may or may not actually want you to verify that the firearms are unloaded. Do not have ammunition in the magazines. Ammunition has to be in the original box or a case made for ammunition. I will say I've flown with ammunition loose in a piece of Tupperware, but I don't recommend it.

If you are putting the hard case inside another suitcase, the card goes on the outside of the case so that the TSA can see that there is a firearm inside.

If you are shipping in a separate case, the card goes on the inside, so that there is no outward indication that there are firearms inside. More on that later.

At that point, they generally don't care unless the box "alarms". That can be on Xray or explosives swab, or I suppose a dog can alert on it. That's when they will want to take a look inside.

When you check your bag, the counter agent should either ask you to wait outside the security area or hand carry the suitcase to a specific area for TSA inspection. There is a lot of variation by airport, even if the TSA says there isn't. You aren't supposed to surrender the keys to anyone, but sometimes they will ask you to do that. Again, that varies by airport.

I mentioned it earlier, but it bears repeating. The TSA does not care about your legally checked guns. They are looking for explosive devices or maybe a shampoo bottle that is over 3 ounces. The only comment I've ever had is "nice gun" when I've dealt with the TSA.

The bigger danger to your guns is theft. If you are shipping it inside a suitcase, pick a suitcase that has a metal rail inside. All of the ones with wheels and handles have metal rails inside. What I do is run a cable around one of the rails and then secure the other end inside the firearms case. The goal here is to make it harder to steal your guns than just opening the suitcase and lifting out the box. The potential thief might want your guns, but he doesn't want to spend several minutes cutting the cables or breaking apart the suitcase. Much easier to go the next suitcase and lift that camera or laptop.

I always fly with two sets of keys, just in case. I recommend against a combination lock because once you tell it to one person, you've told it to the world.

Depending on where you are and who is working the counter, the agents may or may not be familiar with the process. I always ask for a "firearms declaration card" as soon as I get to the counter. I've never had anyone freak out or even express interest, they just give me the card and we complete the process.

I've never needed to use it, but I always build extra time into my trip to the airport just in case. If you're running late, you are guaranteed to run into a problem.

If you are flying with long guns or using a separate case, the chances are that you will have to go to the baggage office when you arrive at your destination. Firearms cases are "special cargo" along with things like golf clubs. They don't go on the conveyor, they are hand carried to the baggage office. Nothing special other than that.

Someone mentioned unintentional overnight stays. From what the airline staff have told me, if your flight is interrupted, they are NOT to release your suitcases to you. That's a FAA regulation (again from what I've been told). I've had that happen to me a few times and the bags have always been at the destination airport ahead of me.

This experience doesn't happen a lot, but it happened to me. We were held up in Charlotte overnight. It was not weather related, so the airline (US Air) put us up overnight. They didn't have a flight going to our destination, so they booked us on Delta the next day. Our luggage flew on US Air, but we flew on Delta. The FAA mandates that the airline flying the people is responsible for the luggage even if it's on a different airline. US Air lost our luggage, but we had to deal with Delta to retrieve it. That took 48 hours, about 50 phone calls, and finally a trip to Mobile Regional Airport to get the bags. They were locked in the US Air storeroom, but I had to go to the Delta counter to find someone who could walk the 10 FEET from one counter to the other.

I think I failed in my effort to keep this short, but there's a lot of misinformation and even apprehension about flying with firearms. Make sure you have the regulations with you, use a quality case, good locks, fill out the paperwork, and don't lose your baggage claim tickets. Smile and be polite no matter what. Airline staff and the TSA deal with a lot of angry and nasty people. A smile, a few kind words, and a comment or two about how hard it is to fix some of the problems they encounter sometimes work wonders with airline staff. If the person in front of you is nasty, be especially nice when it's your turn.

I'm not a lawyer, don't work for the TSA, FAA, or an airline. These are just things I've learned from flying with firearms. One last thing. Be 100% sure you know the laws at your destination. You don't have to be an expert, but you should understand whether or not you can possess a firearm, carry concealed, if open carry is allowed, or there are any quirky rules.
 
GaryS said:
....If you are bringing ammunition with you, the FAA allows 11 pounds maximum. I don't know why the picked 11, but that's the number....
Click to expand...
FWIW, 11 pounds is 5 kilos. That is where the number comes from.

That last trip I carried just over 10 pounds each in two different plastic ammo cans - one in the suitcase with my pistols and one in my second suitcase with my clothes and stuff. So I believe the 11 pound limit is PER CHECKED BAG - just to clarify.

I won't use TSA locks next time, just to be safe. I always get to the airport early so hopefully there are no issues to hold things up.
 
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I have flown about three thousand times with a firearm. Here's the deal. Review the airline rules, try to follow them. Most rules are essentially the same. Don't wave a copy of the rules and proclaim that the ticket agent/baggage people aren't following them. They don't care. Whatever the person says that is checking your bag, do what they say. If you've followed the rules on the airline website, you'll be okay. If what they say differs from the printed rules, do what they say, and don't wave the rules around. Thousands of people fly with a gun every day. You're not the first. They're used to it. Go with the flow . . .

(edit: guns are stolen from luggage at the same rate as unicorns are seen on runways. there's no future in it for thieves. one missing gun and everybody's rice bowl gets broken)


GaryS said:
A few more points about flying with firearms, and I'll do my best to keep it short. I'm not a lawyer, but I have flow over two dozen times with firearms, and I've learned a few lessons.

I always print out the latest regulations from the TSA and the latest rules from the airline. The airlines can be, but usually aren't, more restrictive than the TSA. The only airline I know for sure doesn't allow firearms and ammunition in the same case is Jet Blue.

If you are bringing ammunition with you, the FAA allows 11 pounds maximum. I don't know why the picked 11, but that's the number.

As I said in my previous post never use TSA approved locks. It's just an invitation to have your guns stolen by someone, usually a baggage handler.

When you check your firearms, the airline will probably ask you to fill out the "orange" card, then the counter agent will fill in a bit more. Make sure you put your cell phone number on the card. Answering my phone saved me a major hassle one time, so I always make sure that it's legible.

They may or may not actually want you to verify that the firearms are unloaded. Do not have ammunition in the magazines. Ammunition has to be in the original box or a case made for ammunition. I will say I've flown with ammunition loose in a piece of Tupperware, but I don't recommend it.

If you are putting the hard case inside another suitcase, the card goes on the outside of the case so that the TSA can see that there is a firearm inside.

If you are shipping in a separate case, the card goes on the inside, so that there is no outward indication that there are firearms inside. More on that later.

At that point, they generally don't care unless the box "alarms". That can be on Xray or explosives swab, or I suppose a dog can alert on it. That's when they will want to take a look inside.

When you check your bag, the counter agent should either ask you to wait outside the security area or hand carry the suitcase to a specific area for TSA inspection. There is a lot of variation by airport, even if the TSA says there isn't. You aren't supposed to surrender the keys to anyone, but sometimes they will ask you to do that. Again, that varies by airport.

I mentioned it earlier, but it bears repeating. The TSA does not care about your legally checked guns. They are looking for explosive devices or maybe a shampoo bottle that is over 3 ounces. The only comment I've ever had is "nice gun" when I've dealt with the TSA.

The bigger danger to your guns is theft. If you are shipping it inside a suitcase, pick a suitcase that has a metal rail inside. All of the ones with wheels and handles have metal rails inside. What I do is run a cable around one of the rails and then secure the other end inside the firearms case. The goal here is to make it harder to steal your guns than just opening the suitcase and lifting out the box. The potential thief might want your guns, but he doesn't want to spend several minutes cutting the cables or breaking apart the suitcase. Much easier to go the next suitcase and lift that camera or laptop.

I always fly with two sets of keys, just in case. I recommend against a combination lock because once you tell it to one person, you've told it to the world.

Depending on where you are and who is working the counter, the agents may or may not be familiar with the process. I always ask for a "firearms declaration card" as soon as I get to the counter. I've never had anyone freak out or even express interest, they just give me the card and we complete the process.

I've never needed to use it, but I always build extra time into my trip to the airport just in case. If you're running late, you are guaranteed to run into a problem.

If you are flying with long guns or using a separate case, the chances are that you will have to go to the baggage office when you arrive at your destination. Firearms cases are "special cargo" along with things like golf clubs. They don't go on the conveyor, they are hand carried to the baggage office. Nothing special other than that.

Someone mentioned unintentional overnight stays. From what the airline staff have told me, if your flight is interrupted, they are NOT to release your suitcases to you. That's a FAA regulation (again from what I've been told). I've had that happen to me a few times and the bags have always been at the destination airport ahead of me.

This experience doesn't happen a lot, but it happened to me. We were held up in Charlotte overnight. It was not weather related, so the airline (US Air) put us up overnight. They didn't have a flight going to our destination, so they booked us on Delta the next day. Our luggage flew on US Air, but we flew on Delta. The FAA mandates that the airline flying the people is responsible for the luggage even if it's on a different airline. US Air lost our luggage, but we had to deal with Delta to retrieve it. That took 48 hours, about 50 phone calls, and finally a trip to Mobile Regional Airport to get the bags. They were locked in the US Air storeroom, but I had to go to the Delta counter to find someone who could walk the 10 FEET from one counter to the other.

I think I failed in my effort to keep this short, but there's a lot of misinformation and even apprehension about flying with firearms. Make sure you have the regulations with you, use a quality case, good locks, fill out the paperwork, and don't lose your baggage claim tickets. Smile and be polite no matter what. Airline staff and the TSA deal with a lot of angry and nasty people. A smile, a few kind words, and a comment or two about how hard it is to fix some of the problems they encounter sometimes work wonders with airline staff. If the person in front of you is nasty, be especially nice when it's your turn.

I'm not a lawyer, don't work for the TSA, FAA, or an airline. These are just things I've learned from flying with firearms. One last thing. Be 100% sure you know the laws at your destination. You don't have to be an expert, but you should understand whether or not you can possess a firearm, carry concealed, if open carry is allowed, or there are any quirky rules.
Click to expand...
 
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BC38 said:
Hmmn, that's interesting - especially since it is exactly the opposite of what I was told by the airline's customer service. The info I was given was that the case containing the gun is subject to being opened and inspected by the TSA and therefore needed to be secured with a lock they would be able to open. Otherwise, if they wanted to inspect it - say to confirm that it was unloaded - they would have to page me to the TSA office to bring them the keys, and that could cause me to miss my flight. Of course failure to do so would cause my bag to miss the flight.

Now I'm wondering if maybe the agent was confused and that statement only applies to the OUTER case (not the actual gun case) and I misread it. Guess I'm gonna' have to do some more research on that. Where did you get that text in the paragraph you italicized if I might ask? I'm assuming it is a quote lifted from somewhere...
Click to expand...

This is why you print out a copy to show the agent if challenged, and NICELY, not like a jerk. They will confirm with a superior if unsure, unless you're in NYC, then they're all A-holes. And if you're me...place aother copy directly on top of the firearm box! (I've brought back shotguns from Minn)
 
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Gary S: Thanks for the comprehensive post. Not to argue, but just to learn, I think this statement of yours is incorrect: "If you are putting the hard case inside another suitcase, the card goes on the outside of the case so that the TSA can see that there is a firearm inside."

I think the card goes inside the hard case, on top of the firearm(s), and the hard case, locked, can either be an independent piece of checked luggage, or, as in the way I did it recently, the hardcase with the guns and the card inside of it, gets stowed inside either a soft or hard sided piece of checked in luggage.

I do not have a lot of experience with this, but I did study the heck out of TSA and UA Airlines rules. And I did listen closely to how the airline ticket attendant wanted to do things. (And I agree with Muss M about going with the flow. No need to make waves, for sure.)

Again, not trying to argue, but do want to learn.

(And I think your advice, Gary S, to include your cell number on the card is really good. Thanks!)
 
Ready for TSA travel in our "New America". :)

Pelican arrived today.
 

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Onomea said:
Gary S: Thanks for the comprehensive post. Not to argue, but just to learn, I think this statement of yours is incorrect: "If you are putting the hard case inside another suitcase, the card goes on the outside of the case so that the TSA can see that there is a firearm inside."

I think the card goes inside the hard case, on top of the firearm(s), and the hard case, locked, can either be an independent piece of checked luggage, or, as in the way I did it recently, the hardcase with the guns and the card inside of it, gets stowed inside either a soft or hard sided piece of checked in luggage.

I do not have a lot of experience with this, but I did study the heck out of TSA and UA Airlines rules. And I did listen closely to how the airline ticket attendant wanted to do things. (And I agree with Muss M about going with the flow. No need to make waves, for sure.)

Again, not trying to argue, but do want to learn.

(And I think your advice, Gary S, to include your cell number on the card is really good. Thanks!)
Click to expand...

The card goes where the agent who checks your bag says it goes, which may or may not match what the posted rules say . . .
 
I can only tell you what I've experienced that last several times I've flown. The TSA rules do change slightly from time to time, so they might have changed back.

Carrying a copy of the airline rules helped me a while back when the counter agent told me that the total amount of ammunition I could carry was 11 ounces.

There are variations from airport to airport despite what the written rules say. For example, at some airports they will bring you back into the secure area to open the case for them if it alarms. In others, they will insist, despite what the rules say, that you give them the key or combination. Which is why I use a key.

I don't know Muss, but people I know who have traveled frequently with firearms tell me that theft is a significant problem. I do know that the two times that my bags were lost, no one at the airlines involved cared that they contained firearms. It got no faster response to finding them than any other ones lost luggage.

I'll go with what works for me, he can do whatever works for him.



Onomea said:
Gary S: Thanks for the comprehensive post. Not to argue, but just to learn, I think this statement of yours is incorrect: "If you are putting the hard case inside another suitcase, the card goes on the outside of the case so that the TSA can see that there is a firearm inside."

I think the card goes inside the hard case, on top of the firearm(s), and the hard case, locked, can either be an independent piece of checked luggage, or, as in the way I did it recently, the hardcase with the guns and the card inside of it, gets stowed inside either a soft or hard sided piece of checked in luggage.

I do not have a lot of experience with this, but I did study the heck out of TSA and UA Airlines rules. And I did listen closely to how the airline ticket attendant wanted to do things. (And I agree with Muss M about going with the flow. No need to make waves, for sure.)

Again, not trying to argue, but do want to learn.

(And I think your advice, Gary S, to include your cell number on the card is really good. Thanks!)
Click to expand...
 
The bigger danger to your guns is theft. If you are shipping it inside a suitcase, pick a suitcase that has a metal rail inside. All of the ones with wheels and handles have metal rails inside. What I do is run a cable around one of the rails and then secure the other end inside the firearms case. The goal here is to make it harder to steal your guns than just opening the suitcase and lifting out the box. The potential thief might want your guns, but he doesn't want to spend several minutes cutting the cables or breaking apart the suitcase. Much easier to go the next suitcase and lift that camera or laptop.


GREAT idea here!
Thank you very much for your experience. As I mentioned, I've only traveled with long guns (Hunting, buying another shotgun in another state, etc) and plan to start traveling with a pistol.

ONE OTHER QUESTION: Can I carry the boxed munitions inside the carry case or separately?
 
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bigwheelzip said:
I'd hate to loose my PCR on a plane. The Shield is for flying.
Click to expand...

I don't have a firearm worth under $600 :( and I have 12 now. (I train weekly on 10 of the 12)

Edit: oh wait, I have a Para Ordnance (Canadian, 1994) P12 in .45ACP that has a market value of $450 used. Maybe I'll switch it out. It will fit in the same print-area of the case as the PCR.
 
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Sportsdad60 said:
...ONE OTHER QUESTION: Can I carry the boxed munitions inside the carry case or separately?
Click to expand...
Okay to have ammo in the same case with the guns per the TSA and UA, but best to check the rules with whatever airlines you are flying. And as noted by others, ammo needs to be boxed either in original mfr's box, or a box specifically designed to carry ammo. (They don't want the rounds banging into each other.)

Transporting Firearms and Ammunition | Transportation Security Administration
 
I'm heading to West Palm Beach in Nov to pack up Mom's house with my BIL.(She's in an Assisted Living care facility in Missouri with lung cancer)

I have accelerated my CC carry class taught in WA state for multi-state to next Sunday since I plan to travel with a firearm, both airlines (Yes, I have all the info) and ground (Uhaul from FL to MO)


Anyway, here is the class info. Comments if you have them!

I know FL and IL is NOT included, so my firearm will remain in the Pelican lock box within the truck (or hotel) with a cable. Or maybe not. I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. ;)
Bold states below I *should* be covered with my WA State and Utah C&C permits after the class...I hope.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Utah Concealed Firearm Permit expands your concealed carry horizons. By combining a Utah permit with your Washington State Concealed Pistol License, you will be able to carry in 33 states! This 4.5-hour all-inclusive class fulfills the Utah training requirement and gets your application ready to submit. As a bonus, you will receive a proof-of-training certificate you can use to apply for OR, FL, and AZ carry permits.

The cost includes:
The 4-hour class mandated by the Utah Bureau of Criminal Identification (B.C.I.)
Your application stamped by an approved instructor when done
Your fingerprint card
Your photograph
Photocopies of your WA driver license and CPL
Mailing envelope

With your Washington and Utah permits combined, you will be able to carry in the following states:
Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Delaware, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin, and Wyoming.

Important notes:
Check your eligibility for the Utah permit here:
How do I Apply for a Concealed Firearm Permit? | DPS – Criminal Identification (BCI)
The Utah permit application fee is in addition to the Utah class fee.
If you are a WA resident, you must have a WA CPL to apply for the Utah permit. You can still take the class -- just hold on to your application materials until you have the WA CPL. Apply for your WA CPL at your city PD (in you live in incorporated area) or Sheriff's office (if you live in unincorporated area). This class can not give you a WA CPL.
This class satisfies ONLY the training requirement for other permits such as OR, FL, and AZ. Those states have separate forms, fees, and processes which are not included in this class.
 
Snake, GREAT map! Thank you! Answers all my questions!
I like the fact that you select your home state first, then the states you're already permitted in.
 
When not on official business, I've flown with my un-loaded sidearm(s) in checked luggage.

I use one of the new hard plastic padded pistol cases,
like the ones new handguns come from the factory in.

The one I use has a hole in the handle for a lock (s),
I use my own master brand lock(s) not TSA style.

Ammunition is in it's factory packaging....I have on one occasion
that a TSA baggage checker taped up a somewhat travel worn cartridge box.

Declaration tag went inside the pistol case, as I recall.

No worries.....No big deal.


.
* When flying on official business, it's a lit'l different protocol.


.
 
It depends on WHEN you flew and talked to TSA. After 911 it was required, may I repeat, required by the TSA to use their locks for anything lockable. I flew a lot back then and for the next 4 years after that and I bought a couple of cheap cases when I happened to come across something and obviously was at the destination area and not home. These 'light' gun cases were perfectly acceptable. I have not looked on the TSA website, but I don't believe they post was is acceptable and what is not??? From memory, it stated that it must be TSA and lockable.
The last time I flew a few years ago with a pistol (I have flown since) was that the TSA came over and checked it. PREVIOUSLY you could not leave the counter unless it had a TSA approved lock, so if TSA was busy, the luggage might not make it. I have also had my luggage looked at with the hard case opened, showed the counter person it was unloaded and then locked it in front of them. And I then carried it over to the TSA / Security folks and once they nodded to me (without opening my luggage or the case) I left.

NOTE, back then, I was told on several occasions that I could leave the lock unlocked, use a TSA approved lock or leave them my key. Because they would cut my lock off if they could not access it. Unsure how much of that was bluster. But, I have firearms coverage if stolen and I never traveled by plane with something irreplaceable. I have never taken a carry gun with me by plane.
Like I said, that was just a few years after 911 and since then I used TSA locks a few times and on a few other times going to a show, I had them look at it before locking it.
 
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