ALERT - (now with updates) WHEN CHANGING RECOIL SPRING ON MODEL 41..........

[chief38]

I sent another e-mail to John Andrews at Wolff asking him to double check the wording he used in his reply to me concerning the recoil spring's proper orientation. (see post #8)

I wanted to confirm their instructions in the package state that the open end of the spring should be placed to the rear, and the "closed" or finished end toward the muzzle. (not the other way around)

I also want to confirm this was not just a mental error or mis-statement by him in the earlier correspondence, in which he stated just the opposite.

In the meantime, does anyone here have a current Wolff model 41 recoil spring package that shows the current instructions/warning concerning proper orientation of the spring? thanks

Armorer951:

This is one of the times I contend that common sense out-trumps what ever a Company Employee says to a caller or emailer. He may not even be familiar with a M41! Just look at the self explanatory photos I posted. The UNFINISHED end of the Spring corkscrewed through the hole in the slide on the very first shot on two separate pistols on two separate occasions where Wolff Springs were installed the wrong way. Common sense tells us that the rear end where the spring goes into the Pistols Frame about 1/4", it can do no harm because it is captive in the blind hole. It also tells us that the FINISHED end is stopped by the smaller beginning of the Slide Hole. As soon as the wrong unfinished end is installed facing the muzzle, it corkscrews through on the first shot.

I do appreciate you emailing your contact at Wolff and I hope he corrects it on the instructions if in fact they are incorrectly written. Like you stated, he might have just reversed his thoughts in the email he sent you - but believe me, either way - - he is incorrect, (it's just common sense as well as the fact I did witness this twice on the very first shots)!

Thanks for contacting him and I hope Wolff straightens their act up either way. I REALLY WISH they would just make new "corrected" Springs in the fashion that S&W designed them - then there is no thought about direction. I can understand from a practical standpoint (I'm sure they have plenty of springs already made for the M41 since there are so many varieties) but there will be many others that fall into the same trap as my friends have. Again, at the time there was no warning. Anyone who owns a M41 has always just dropped the spring on the recoil guide as it made no difference as to orientation and so they just continue to do what has always worked.

Regards,
Chief38

 

[graydog]

Hi
Again thanks for starting this post and adding the pictures, it is very eye opening.

Graydog

 

[armorer951]

I think there may be a misunderstanding here.....by contacting the company, I'm not disputing the fact that the recoil spring has to be oriented a certain way in order to function properly. I'm also not disputing whether or not guns have been damaged by the decisions to incorrectly install the spring.

My intent here is to try to determine if the people at Wolff realize there is a problem, and whether or not they have taken the adequate and correct steps to prevent this from happening to someone again.

It's clear from the response I got in my first e-mail to the company that the particular person from Wolff that responded either has no idea what we are talking about....or he simply made a mental error in the wording of his response. Clearly, something needs to be done at both ends, (no pun intended), both by the company and the consumer.

Ideally, the company needs to either re-design this particular spring to eliminate the open end, which would eliminate the problem altogether. Or, at the very least, Wolff needs to include a specific instruction and warning in the package to alert customers to this issue, and to inform them about the proper way to orient this particular spring. Once the manufacturer has made the proper correction in design, and included the accurate information and warning if necessary in the instructions included in the package, consumers need to read and follow the instructions included with the product.

 

[Walter Rego]

When I buy a used autoloading pistol I typically replace the recoil spring just for peace of mind and because Wolff springs are very inexpensive. I also save the springs that were removed from the pistols in the original Wolff packaging.
Here is the warning from the spring kit that I bought for my Model 41 in 2015. I have not yet fired the pistol and will check the spring orientation out tomorrow. When I install recoil springs on guns with any kind of guide rod I follow the practice that is normally used on M1911 pattern guns; the tight end of the spring goes towards the rear, typically requiring a twisting motion to seat it all the way back, and the open end towards the front. I probably did that with my Model 41 too so I had better check.
The spring pictured is the one that was in the gun when I bought it. The gun was made in 1977. No idea if it is original or not. One end is open. I didn't replace the firing pin spring hence my handwritten note that the spring in the package is the new one.
If you look at the instructions, they say Rev 3/98 which I take as meaning the last revision for printing was March of 1998.

 

[chief38]

When I buy a used autoloading pistol I typically replace the recoil spring just for peace of mind and because Wolff springs are very inexpensive. I also save the springs that were removed from the pistols in the original Wolff packaging.
Here is the warning from the spring kit that I bought for my Model 41 in 2015. I have not yet fired the pistol and will check the spring orientation out tomorrow. When I install recoil springs on guns with any kind of guide rod I follow the practice that is normally used on M1911 pattern guns; the tight end of the spring goes towards the rear, typically requiring a twisting motion to seat it all the way back, and the open end towards the front. I probably did that with my Model 41 too so I had better check.
The spring pictured is the one that was in the gun when I bought it. The gun was made in 1977. No idea if it is original or not. One end is open. I didn't replace the firing pin spring hence my handwritten note that the spring in the package is the new one.
If you look at the instructions, they say Rev 3/98 which I take as meaning the last revision for printing was March of 1998.

Please see my post below! Pictures to follow.

 

[chief38]

Walter, Armorer & the rest who are following this thread,

In the spring manufacturing world I am a "No-body". I am just a private citizen who has personally witnessed two different S&W M41's get jammed up on the very first shot by poorly designed Wolff Recoil Springs for this pistol. I am desperately trying to warn the fellas here on the S&W Forum so they do not have the same issue. While I may be a "No-body" I am someone with 40+ years of experience owning a S&W M41 and I am a very mechanically inclined fella as well. More importantly, I have and use my common sense.

What Walter Rego posted a picture of is the Wolff packaging that some employee at their Factory more than likely copied from a 1911 Spring package. The 1911 style Spring DOES have their unfinished end facing forward because the Recoil Spring Cap on a 1911 captures that Spring! The tight finished end grips onto the rear of the Guide Rod. So for 1911 style pistols the instructions Walter posted on the package are correct - BUT for a S&W M41 they are INCORRECT! Walter, I am not yelling at you, I realize you did not write them - lol.

The Frame of the M41 has a 1/4" deep hole in it where the mushroomed end of the Guide Rod sits and is captured. The UNFINISHED end of a Wolff Spring can not go anywhere because the hole has a bottom and even if it slipped past the mushroomed end, still could not go anywhere!

The Slide (in the front) of the M41 has a hole in it that measures 5/16" at the rear allowing for the Recoil Spring to enter and clear. The front of that hole is smaller and measures 3/16" which captures the FINISHED end of the Recoil Spring but yet allows the Guide Rod to go through. There is a space around the Rod and that is where the problem occurs!

Common Sense fact: S&W ships M41's with Recoil Springs finished on BOTH ends - so of course what I am saying is a finished end HAS TO face the Muzzle! S&W Springs are equal on both sides and it matters NOT which end goes where! Wolff took the cheap way out and created a whole new issue by doing so.

Armorer951,

NO MATTER what Wolff emails you back, even the second time, what I have laid out here is 100% correct! Whoever answered your email and whoever wrote those instructions on the packages of M41 Springs is INCORRECT. Think about all I have gone through here logically. Look at the photos, look at your M41 (if you own one) and you have to come to the conclusion that Wolff screwed up in both manufacturing a poorly designed Spring and/or that their instructions are not correct. Because S&W ships the guns with TWO finished ends, I have to be correct because they have a finished side facing the muzzle too!

I certainly hope all my efforts on this Thread HELP PREVENT M41 owners here from falling into the same trap my two buddy's did.

I have spoken to Wolff a number of times and can't deal with their "mind set" any more. They refused to scrap the ill manufactured Springs and so they have opted to limit their liability by writing a warning on the package. OK, - they are taking the cheap way out - BUT AT LEAST WRITE THE INSTRUCTIONS CORRECTLY WOLFF!

Regards to all and I apologize if I have come off "snooty" here. I don't mean to be, however this has been quite a frustrating Thread.

Chief38

 

[chief38]

Last but not least.......

Here are pictures of my Wolff reduced weight Recoil Springs for my M41. Please note I have painted the unfinished end of the spring red and also added a note on the packaging that the red end MUST face rearwards. This prevents both an accidental incorrect orientation by me or the next owner of my M41. Just a suggestion for those who do have Wolff Springs.

Also below is a link to Numrich Arms which sells the S&W Standard Factory Spring. Note BOTH ends are finished!

Recoil Spring, New Factory Original | Gun Parts Corp.

 

[rolandj]

Seems these posts have revealed this has happened to several folks 41's. I wonder how many folks 41's this has actually happened to? I know for sure if it had happened to one of mine it would have made me sick. I just checked my 41 and my 422 and they both have original S & W springs. I have another 41 arriving this Tuesday and I will be sure to check it out thoroughly before using it. Thanks for alerting all of us to this problem.

 

[chief38]

BTW in case anyone here is interested...... the reason I was experimenting with various weigh springs for my model 41 are a couple. First is that I decided to shoot some Eley Target ammo from my M41 that did not have enough power to operate the side properly so I tried a lighter one. Secondly, during the .22 ammo shortage I had no standard velocity ammo for my M41 and used a heavier Spring with Hi-velocity ammo. Thankfully, I installed the Wolff Springs in the correct direction and had no problems.

With standard velocity CCI that I can get easily now, the standard 7.5 pound Factory Spring works perfectly fine and I strongly suggest that if yours works fine - just use that one. If and when it gets tired, get a replacement from S&W as theirs has 2 finished ends - no decisions to make or to forget.

 

[Dave Lively]

The S&W 41 I bought 20+ years ago is increasingly ammo sensitive to the point it now has a FTF or FTE about every 50 rounds with CCI standard velocity. It occurred to me a few weeks ago the problem might be I have never replaced the recoil spring after shooting thousands of rounds through the gun. I was going to try the Wolff 3 spring kit but after reading this thread am going to try the stock spring first. If it doesn't work I will give the Wolff springs a try but be very, very careful with them. Thanks for the warning.

 

[chief38]

The S&W 41 I bought 20+ years ago is increasingly ammo sensitive to the point it now has a FTF or FTE about every 50 rounds with CCI standard velocity. It occurred to me a few weeks ago the problem might be I have never replaced the recoil spring after shooting thousands of rounds through the gun. I was going to try the Wolff 3 spring kit but after reading this thread am going to try the stock spring first. If it doesn't work I will give the Wolff springs a try but be very, very careful with them. Thanks for the warning.

Dave,
One thing I can suggest here for you to try. MidwayUSA sells a Volquartsen hardened Extractor for the M41 (under $12 bucks) that IMO is a better quality part than the OEM part. I have helped a few friends completely solve their jams and FTE issues just by the installation of this part. After years of shooting the original one does wear. While I have in the past sharpened the originals, for $12 buck it doesn't even pay to try.

If you do order one from MidwayUSA and need help installing it, PM me and I can assist. It is really very easy and takes about 15 minutes or so.

Volquartsen Exact Edge Extractor S&W Model 41 - MPN: VC41EE

 

[Walter Rego]

Chief38, thank you for sharing this issue and your knowledge with we Model 41 owners.
I pulled my Model 41 out of the safe and field stripped it. I did have the finished/flat end pointed towards that muzzle and the open coil towards the rear. I currently have the 7 3/8" barrel installed with the false muzzle accessory. I don't know if the open coil end could wind its way past the end of the hole for the guide rod and tie it up in that configuration, but I had it right anyway. I'll make sure I orient it that same way when I switch to the 5 1/2" barrel.

 

[Dave Lively]

Dave,
One thing I can suggest here for you to try. MidwayUSA sells a Volquartsen hardened Extractor for the M41 (under $12 bucks) that IMO is a better quality part than the OEM part.

Changing the spring is easy and inexpensive so I am going to try that first. But if that doesn't work I will try the extractor, thanks for the tip.

 

[chief38]

Chief38, thank you for sharing this issue and your knowledge with we Model 41 owners.
I pulled my Model 41 out of the safe and field stripped it. I did have the finished/flat end pointed towards that muzzle and the open coil towards the rear. I currently have the 7 3/8" barrel installed with the false muzzle accessory. I don't know if the open coil end could wind its way past the end of the hole for the guide rod and tie it up in that configuration, but I had it right anyway. I'll make sure I orient it that same way when I switch to the 5 1/2" barrel.

Trust me - it can and it did 2 times on the very first shot - 2 different M41's and 2 different friends. When the Guide Rod is pushed to one side there is just enough room for the Spring to get good and jammed. I just want to have others learn from other peoples unfortunate experiences. Once you get the Barrel off pulling the Spring out isn't too difficult with some tools, HOWEVER on the M41 you CAN'T field strip the gun without having the Slide back first and that takes some real doing! Believe me when I tell you, you don't want this to happen and there is also damage done to the gun.

 

[ladder13]

Good thread. I use factory springs in mine but will stick a copy of this in my file.

 

[chief38]

Changing the spring is easy and inexpensive so I am going to try that first. But if that doesn't work I will try the extractor, thanks for the tip.

Okay - it won't hurt to replace the spring but I'm betting it won't solve your problem. A weak Recoil Spring mostly & unnecessarily beats up the gun as the slide pounds back harder. In my experience with this model, most FTE are Extractor related and have been permanently solved with the Volquartsen part. Not being there to see your M41 I can't really tell. Please keep me posted.

Regards,
Chief38

 

[graydog]

Okay - it won't hurt to replace the spring but I'm betting it won't solve your problem. A weak Recoil Spring mostly & unnecessarily beats up the gun as the slide pounds back harder. In my experience with this model, most FTE are Extractor related and have been permanently solved with the Volquartsen part. Not being there to see your M41 I can't really tell. Please keep me posted.

Regards,
Chief38

Hi
Here is a little story of an experience I had with a 41 years ago. Before I started to collect these silly guns I bought a gun that came with a 5.5 inch heavy barrel and a 7 inch barrel.

Whenever I shot the 5.5 inch barrel I would have problems with ejection of the fired case. When I put the 7 inch barrel on the gun it worked perfectly.

Like a silly goose I sold the combo ( I wish I had it back now) I am sure that the extractor was partly to blame but not all of it.

Just a story of one of my experience for what it is worth. I never stuck with it see exactly what was causing the problem.

Graydog

 

[retnavyshooter]

I have been using a M46 since 1966. Does the same spring issue apply. I would assume so as the mechanicals of the 46 and 41 are the same. Just checked the spring in my 46; I had the unfinished end toward the muzzle. Quickly reoriented. Don't know when I changed spring.

 

[chief38]

I have been using a M46 since 1966. Does the same spring issue apply. I would assume so as the mechanicals of the 46 and 41 are the same. Just checked the spring in my 46; I had the unfinished end toward the muzzle. Quickly reoriented. Don't know when I changed spring.

AFAIK the M46 is just a M41 without the frills and should have the same parts, springs and specs. If that is the case then yes it would apply to yours as well.

 

[Dave Lively]

Okay - it won't hurt to replace the spring but I'm betting it won't solve your problem. A weak Recoil Spring mostly & unnecessarily beats up the gun as the slide pounds back harder. In my experience with this model, most FTE are Extractor related and have been permanently solved with the Volquartsen part. Not being there to see your M41 I can't really tell. Please keep me posted.

Regards,
Chief38

Replacing the recoil spring made things worse. With CCI standard velocity I now see about 2 or 3 failures out of a 50 round box. A couple of stovepipes but the majority of the failures were the fired round being completely ejected but the next round not feeding. Those failures occurred with all 3 of the magazines I have. My fairly new and extremely reliable 22 compact had one failure like that out of 100 rounds too.

I tried some Federal Auto-match and had much better results, one stovepipe out of 120 rounds or so.

The extractor is cheap so I ordered one but given the nature of the failures don't have a lot of hope it will improve the reliability of my 41. I clean the gun after every shooting session and the magazines do not have any wax buildup either.

I know this is heresy but if the extractor does not help I am going to start shooting automatch and other high velocity ammo through it since it works. It seems like using HV ammo is a lot like changing your cars oil at the factory recommended 5000 or 7500 miles instead of every 3000. Nobody can show an instance where it caused damage but don't see much of a reason to quit doing what they have always done. If its not broke dont fix it. But since my 41 is unreliable with SV I don't have much to lose. Plus, unlike most cars S&W will probably fix my 41 under warranty if it does break from shooting the ammo specified in the manual. I checked my 1995 manual and it makes no mention of SV only.