Am I alone?

A local department switched to 40 Glocks years back. On a cold winter day they had a threat coming at them wearing 2 sweaters and a heavy leather jacket over it. Many many 9mm could not stop the threat. 38 even less so. I load lots of 38 spl target rounds and love shooting them but for defense they are not a consideration. 38 and 9s are useful if nothing else is available in that situation. I also load a lot of 44 spl target loads with lead SWCs and now thats another story.
 
I'd like to read about this firefight. Got a link or enough info I can search for it . . . ?

oysterer said:
A local department switched to 40 Glocks years back. On a cold winter day they had a threat coming at them wearing 2 sweaters and a heavy leather jacket over it. Many many 9mm could not stop the threat. 38 even less so. I load lots of 38 spl target rounds and love shooting them but for defense they are not a consideration. 38 and 9s are useful if nothing else is available in that situation. I also load a lot of 44 spl target loads with lead SWCs and now thats another story.
Click to expand...
 
oysterer said:
A local department switched to 40 Glocks years back. On a cold winter day they had a threat coming at them wearing 2 sweaters and a heavy leather jacket over it. Many many 9mm could not stop the threat. 38 even less so. I load lots of 38 spl target rounds and love shooting them but for defense they are not a consideration. 38 and 9s are useful if nothing else is available in that situation. I also load a lot of 44 spl target loads with lead SWCs and now thats another story.
Click to expand...

News flash, in that scenario, I doubt the 44 would have done any better. Its always shot placement. I would bet most hits were non vitals or the guy was on drugs. His clothing choice was irrelevant.
 
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Deceasedeye said:
If someone needs to be shot and it's up to you, not later but now in a split second and the 357 is what you have I guess you throw it at them. I am an old man now, I started shooting at 12, I have shot competively, so I know about education, training and responsibility, I also know about the heat of the moment. Even the best of us is not perfect!
Click to expand...

If you carried a .22 and missed you could kill the person standing next to your target.
 
A .38 may command respect, but there is NOTHING like seeing the blue eyed devil that is the igniter on a flame thrower to get you closer to your preferred god...

From one of our shoots
wmK6Y9D.jpg
 
Deceasedeye said:
Since a magnum round up close is capable of decapitating more than just your adversary wouldn't it be OVERKILL if you took out an innocent bystander as well?
Click to expand...

No,.... it will not. I am assuming your being sarcastic friend. Nothing whatsoever wrong or overpowered using a " Magnum ", weapon with appropriate projectiles. Never heard a fella or Gal complain about the effectiveness of a cartridge if involved in a bout of unpleasantness.
 
Funny, you hear the Elmer Keith, Bill Jordan stories about the development of the 357 and one of the reasons was to bust an engine block in order to stop a car and yet it's perfect for an encounter with a human being just a few feet away. Nobody is advocating anything here or suggesting any kind of ban or restrictions, just a logical look at the situation. I feel sure that if it was legal to own a machine gun for home defence that many would ( I know it is legal under certain circumstances so don't use that).
 
With all of the "nonsense" going on around us, I'm considering to move my EDC from J-frames (currently Model 60-15 loaded with Winchester PDX1, 130gr, .38Spl +P) to my Kimber Ultra Carry loaded with 230gr .45ACP Federal Hydra-Shocks.

This allows me to go from 5 rounds to 7+1 for about the same carry weight. Both typically carried IWB in Milt Sparks VMII's.

I gotta tell ya that while I tend to avoid the big cities, these recent "peaceful demonstrations" have got me a bit rattled; especially as some of these are moving to the suburbs.

I'm planning a road trip from OH to CT in the next couple of weeks and, for the first time in a long time, am concerned about carrying enough firepower.

Very sad state of current affairs.....................
 
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RWPBR said:
Wow.. Overkill? ... Decapitation? .. Where are you guys getting this super Uber 357 Magnum Thunder God ammo? Are they Thor's own handloads?
Click to expand...

What, you've never heard of Hirtenberger Buscadero Ticondas?
 
Info from Ballistics by the inch
Bond Texas Defender
3" barrel 1246 fps 357 mag fed 125gr 430 FPE
Bond Texas Defender
3" barrel 885 fps CCI Speer Gold Dot 135 gr 234 FPE
261 fps faster for 357 VS 38+p = 430 fpe VS 234 fpe
I do not worship at the tree of Velocity or paper FPE's, but if given a choice of ~200 fpe more out of a handgun, I would go with increased energy. I realize Bullet function, location, combatant's mental, physical size, and alcohol and/or drugs would be contributing factors in overall results. Consider the Eaton Co. Deputy Mi who was attacked by a male with a knife+, she made 8 hits with 9mm duty ammunition, and still ended up close enough to be struck in the hand by attacker's stick. Bodycam Shows Armed Suspect Running at Michigan Deputy Before Being Shot - YouTube Be Safe,
 
Two suggestions.
1. If you think .357 Magnums are overkill then don't use them.
2. Don't stand behind somebody that is about to be shot by a gun loaded with .357 Magnums.
 
Deceasedeye said:
MYTH? The 357 bullet that was designed to bust engine blocks: That round was manufactured until about 1960 or so. Nearly any current . 357 round will knock a hole in a modern car engine block.May 10, 2010
The High Road
Click to expand...

Yes, but they aren't making engine blocks the way they used to back in the day. Also, the flimsy sheet metal and plastic around the engine are a little less substantial than the older cars.
 
Deceasedeye said:
MYTH? The 357 bullet that was designed to bust engine blocks: That round was manufactured until about 1960 or so. Nearly any current . 357 round will knock a hole in a modern car engine block.May 10, 2010
The High Road
Click to expand...

Okay, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here... The .357 Magnum cartridge was neither designed to pierce engine blocks, nor was it ever capable of doing so.
You may be thinking of the fact that .357 Magnum was known and praised for its ability to reliably pierce auto bodies and windshields whereas early round-nose .38 Specials had a reputation for being stopped by car doors if they struck one of the more reinforced parts of the door or being redirected by windshields of more slanted angles, but .357 Magnum cannot pierce an engine block.

Heck, not even the .500 S&W Magnum (which is currently the most powerful commercially available handgun cartridge) can pierce an engine block. Don't take my word for it though, Google it, folks have tested what can and cannot in fact pierce an engine block many times over, complete with unedited videos of said tests being conducted, and the results are honestly quite shocking just how sturdy an engine block actually is.

The .357 Magnum cartridge's supposed ability to pierce engine blocks is pure Urban Legend the likes of Winter Coats being able to stop small caliber handgun bullets or .45 caliber handguns being able to knock a man clean off of his feet.

There is a wide variety of folklore, myths, and legends in regards to the effectiveness (or lack thereof) regarding particular firearms/ammunition, all of which is (as the names suggest) exaggeration at best.
Furthermore, there is a lot of fabrication in the media concocted either for the sake of entertainment or sometimes to push a particular narrative for political purposes. So you really have to take everything you see or hear regarding firearms with a grain of salt.

To provide a personal example, for the longest time I carried a .380 ACP pistol exclusively because I had been mislead by things that I had heard online about how even standard pressure 9mm Luger was a powerhouse Military cartridge which offered the absolute best ballistics performance and how anything more powerful was either excessive, dangerous, or somehow offered no practical advantage, so being a simple civilian, .380 ACP seemed more than adequate.
However, as time passed and I learned more about firearms, I came to realize just how misguided I was, how inaccurate the statements I heard were, and just how many nonsensical statements are made on a daily basis on the internet by novices masquerading as experts. Now I carry a double stack semiautomatic pistol chambered in .40 S&W, a cartridge which is claimed by certain folks (who consider themselves experts and even make a living training/instructing others) to be so volatile that it literally tears guns apart, yet inexplicably offers no ballistic advantage over 9mm Luger.

TL;DR: Don't believe everything you hear about firearms because most of it is complete nonsense and always check your facts, lest you end up posting threads and arguing with folks based on complete misinformation.
 
DATA! we need data,,

This video has pretty good data to answer the .38 question,,
(I like the conclusions,,,)

I also laugh when YouTube "closed captioning" spells Greg Ellifritz name as "elephant",,,:D

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nycYxb-zNwc[/ame]

My interpretation of the video is that if you got a 38,, carry a 38,,,

Am I right or wrong?
 
Deceasedeye said:
MYTH? The 357 bullet that was designed to bust engine blocks: That round was manufactured until about 1960 or so. Nearly any current . 357 round will knock a hole in a modern car engine block.May 10, 2010
The High Road
Click to expand...

Well, you're link didn't work, but I was able to use Google and find the thread in question, which supports the fact that busting a car engine with .357 Magnum is a myth.

Here's the link to the actual thread (Mods, if this is inappropriate, please delete):

Can it really split an engine block? | The High Road

And the post in question:

There was a special armor piercing truncated cone .357 bullet that was designed to bust engine blocks: That round was manufactured until about 1960 or so.
Click to expand...

In other words, a specially-designed bullet, that is no longer made, was required to punch a hole in an engine. Which, by the way, is waaaaaaaaay different than splitting an engine block, which is the myth the thread is alluding to.

Here's something for you to read:

This guy actually fired a 158gr JHP .357 Magnum round into an engine block, a round that is far more likely to be used than a 40+ year-old specialty bullet.

The Box O' Truth #54 - Busting an Engine Block - The Box O' Truth

And here's what the bullet did to the block:

54-03.jpg


From the caption:

It only made a lead smear on the block. No "busting" of the block at all.
Click to expand...

So, yes. The notion that the .357 Magnum can bust an engine block is a myth.

In other words, you are mythtaken.

;)
 
SweetMK said:
DATA! we need data,,

This video has pretty good data to answer the .38 question,,
(I like the conclusions,,,)

I also laugh when YouTube "closed captioning" spells Greg Ellifritz name as "elephant",,,:D

The Best Handgun Caliber - A Real World Study - YouTube

My interpretation of the video is that if you got a 38,, carry a 38,,,

Am I right or wrong?
Click to expand...

It's been a while since I've seen that video, but the original study that Ellifritz did can be found here:

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association

To sum it up, all the handgun service calibers (.38 Special, 9mm, .357 Magnum, .40S&W, .45ACP, etc.) perform about the same in actual shootings. Any difference/advantage one may have over another is so small as to be insignificant.

My take? Pick a caliber/gun combination you like that's reliable with a good quality HP, can shoot well, and will have with you if you need it. 5-shot snub or 16-shot Glock, .38 Special or .45ACP. Your ability to get good hits when it counts is going to matter more than how big or small your bullets are.

Just my opinion.
 
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I carry a 360 AirWeight with 125 gr .357, but what I shoot are lower velocity rounds between 1150 and 1250 fps and the guns shoots to point of aim and it fairly accurate too. I don't shoot .38 +p out of it because I don't want to have to clean the powder rings out of the cylinder all of the time. Even with the Hogue monogrip on it I cannot handle the hotter .357 loads pushing 1450 to 1500 fps, just too brutal on the hands to shoot more than a few rounds and recoil from a pistol has never been a problem with me until I bought the AirWeight.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
ContinentalOp said:
In other words, a specially-designed bullet, that is no longer made, was required to punch a hole in an engine. Which, by the way, is waaaaaaaaay different than splitting an engine block, which is the myth the thread is alluding to.
Click to expand...

Amusingly enough, I am aware of the bullet he's referring to, it was not designed to pierce an engine block, cannot pierce an engine block, and is the origin of yet another enduring, comically nonsensical Urban Legend.

KTW Teflon-Coated "Cop-Killer" Bullets

The bullet he is referring to was a steel-core, hard brass semiwadcutter bullet with a green teflon coating to protect the rifling. The bullet was designed for and marketed towards Law Enforcement, but eventually the media did what they're famous for and ran sensationalist reports about how it was "Cop-Killer" ammunition, complete with outrageous claims that it's amazing armor-piercing capabilities were all thanks to the special coating on the outside of the bullet.

Eventually the bullet was taken off the market and the company who produced it went away, but the bullet had left it's mark upon the world by spawning the silly urban legend that teflon-coatings somehow make bullets armor-piercing, not to mention popularized the "Cop-Killer Bullets" buzzword as well as armor-piercing bullets being green-tipped in popular culture which eventually became reality as modern armor-piercing ammo is often marked with a green tip.
 
I think the question should be; for what are you preparing?

If you believe that you will most likely encounter an adversary that is lightly clothed (or unclothed) standing square to you, with no obstacles or limbs between you and his/her COM, and will hold still for you, then sure, .38 or .380, or 9mm are all great calibers that will do the job.

If, however, you don't think those conditions are likely, or believe it's impossible to know what the conditions might be, then it might be wise to plan for worst-case and carry .45 or .357 instead.


We had a saying in flying, "plan for the worst and hope for the best". All the takeoff data is based on three engines (even though we had four). Landing data is based on thrust reversers not opening.

Carry whatever makes you comfortable, but think about all aspects of the scenario most likely to occur. People make a big stink about over penetration, but never consider that you will never be mugged in a crowd of people; you'll be mugged in the alley and there won't be anyone behind the perp, except maybe another perp.
 
All this engine block talk! Last month in Cincinnati, we had a whackjob in an 18 wheeler involved in a 2 hour police chase. Long story short. The CPD SWAT team deployed a sniper with a .50BMG with rounds specifically designed TO take out engine blocks(armor piercing incendiary???). 2 shots, truck was out of commission. Pretty badass.
 
Deceasedeye said:
Funny, you hear the Elmer Keith, Bill Jordan stories about the development of the 357 and one of the reasons was to bust an engine block in order to stop a car and yet it's perfect for an encounter with a human being just a few feet away. Nobody is advocating anything here or suggesting any kind of ban or restrictions, just a logical look at the situation. I feel sure that if it was legal to own a machine gun for home defence that many would ( I know it is legal under certain circumstances so don't use that).
Click to expand...

Some contex. When the 357mag was developed, it was around a 158gr lswc, then 158gr jsp. Yes, using those rds will almost gaurantee over penetration. Just switch to a jhp in the same wt changes everything.
The 38sp osnt a bad rd with a good bullet running +p. Feed it anything else, snub, pretty marginal with anything but headshots.
 
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