American 44 “Rimfire”

[BMur]

I’m researching the American 44 Rimfire caliber. I have extensive notes on the Colt 44 Rimfire SAA and didn’t realize that they are basically a mirror image of each other when it comes to where they were shipped and when they were manufactured. They are pretty rare and most were sent to Mexico City and the Southern states. However, some also were sent to Major Distributors in the East.

Is there any interest in this caliber on the forum?


Murph

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I have heard that No 3 S&Ws for Turkey were both purpose built and conversions from 44 Russian to 44 Henry (RF). 1) Is this RF a rebranding of the same cartridge? 2) Is this cartridge Bore diameter in the .429" diameter or the larger 44 American (CF) diameter? 3) can Henry RF ammo function with any accuracy in the "American" RF?

The Turks had bought several thousand Henry rifles for their continual war with Russia, and for logistical reasons had the No 3s in the Henry cartridge. (I think it's a brilliant idea!)

If no one else, at least I'm interested, and looking forward to your revelations!

Ivan

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


I would be interested in discussing the 44/100 RF cartridge in so
far as it pertains to the No. 3 American model, 1st and 2nd issue.

According to Charels Pate's book: Smith & Wesson American
Model in U.S. and Foreign Service, serial number 1 was submitted
to the Army Ordinance Board of 1870 in New Orleans. That revolver
is in the Springfield Armory Museum and is a .44 Rim Fire.

Pate explains that during the Civil War, S&W had cartridge making
facilities and was making 44/100 RF cartridges (in addition to the
22/100 and 32/100 it made for their own pistols) for Frank Wesson's
rifles used in The War. This made it a natural choice for S&W to
use in their first Army size pistol.

The Ordinance Board praised the new S&W but said it should be
in a Center Fire configuration and S&W took this to heart and
quickly switched to a CF version of the 44/100 RF and that is
the origin of the .44 S&W American cartridge.

Who actually designed the 44 American is not known but it was
likely C. D. Leets who was S&W's inside contractor for cartridge
manufacture.


Cheers!
Webb


P.S. Where did you get the pics of that particular No. 3 American?

 

[BMur]

Frontier Concept

From what I’ve read and studied the 44Rimfire chambered in the pistol was the first Frontier concept. That concept being having both a rifle/pistol combination on the frontier that chambered the same round. Basically the 44 Henry rifle initially combined with the Smith & Wesson 44 Rimfire American revolver. The 44 Rimfire was the origin of all the 44’s that followed!

Since Winchester introduced the 73’ rifle in 44WCF centerfire in 1873, this new design quickly replaced the 44 Rimfire frontier combination and introduced the FRONTIER SIX SHOOTER centerfire combo.

Very historical and scarce guns are the 44 American rimfires. It amazes me that they have not achieved more value as the Henry rifles have.

In my opinion probably the most undervalued Smith & Wesson early revolver out there!

Murph

 

[BMur]

Auction

Sorry Webb,
I missed your PS

That photo is from a recent auction in Austin Texas that I unfortunately did not win. I did document it. It’s a legit 44rf and went for $2000 plus buyers premium, tax, etc. To me that was very low.

Murph

 

[BMur]

Turkish contract

Ivan,
I have yet to actually see one of those Turkish contract variations. They are more rare than the Americans since most left the country.

Murph

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

That photo is from a recent auction in Austin Texas that I unfortunately did not win. I did document it. It’s a legit 44rf and went for $2000 plus buyers premium, tax, etc. To me that was very low.

Murph

Well, I was curious because I was interested in that No. 3 too.
I ended up purchasing it and I'm waiting for it to be delivered.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[BMur]

Austin auction

Good for you Webb,
I couldn’t bid higher in lieu of having to fly there and pick it up the added cost and risk/ time, etc just didn’t make sense.I couldn’t arrange for shipping.
I did get this one though. Being delivered tomorrow. Maybe we can compare markings etc? I would appreciate that for my file.

Murph

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

I did get this one though. Being delivered tomorrow. Maybe we can compare markings etc? I would appreciate that for my file.

Murph

Sure. After it gets here.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[BMur]

History

Just a little historical background.
The 44 rimfire Henry was actually used in the Civil War and also later in the 66’ Winchester rifle/carbine. The 66’ was also used by the Indians against Custer in the battle of little Big Horn.
I also wonder how Many Smith & Wesson 44 rimfire Americans were actually used in that battle as well.

The cartridge transitions are seen in attached photo’s.
44 Henry, 44 American, 44 Russian, 44 Colt, 44 WCF.

Later the 44 Special, and 44 Mag.

What is not photo’d and should be included is:

44 Webley, 44 Bulldog, 44 M&H, and others.

All of these cartridges spawned from the original .44 rimfire.

Finally, the transition of revolvers beginning with the American chambering the .44 rimfire and ending with the large frame double action chambering the .44 Russian and 44 WCF.

Murph

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

One of the older Fledderman Value books had a cover photo of a Remington revolver that one cylinder was for center fire and rim fire and the second cylinder was in cap and ball. With a gun like that, you could always find one kind of ammo or another! (If there were any gun shoppes to be found!)

It looked like a cross between a New Army and an 1875/8. That would be a perfect side arm if you need more power in your rifle, thing Sharp's or Reminton Rolling Block.

When the Texas Rangers got a batch if 30-40 carbines, the 45 Colt revolvers came back into popularity, most had gone to 38-40 & 44-40 before that the pair up with their 73 & 92 Winchesters.

Ivan

 

[BMur]

Combo revolver

Ivan,
That reminds me of the early conversion revolver having a cap & ball cylinder and a cartridge cylinder combo. The hammer being machined to strike both a centerfire and Rimfire cartridge. I just can’t remember which model it was. I think it was a Starr revolver.

Murph

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

Ivan,
That reminds me of the early conversion revolver having a cap & ball cylinder and a cartridge cylinder combo. The hammer being machined to strike both a centerfire and Rimfire cartridge. I just can’t remember which model it was. I think it was a Starr revolver.

Murph

Colt made an early cartridge/cap-n-ball combo designed by Thuer.
This was a short lived front loading cartridge cylinder and a com-
plicated adapter breech section. The only saving grace with this
design was that a regular cap-n-ball cylinder could be substituted
and the revolver used as a cap-n-ball. They still had the rammer
for seating bullets. There wasn't any rim fire version made as far
as I know.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[BMur]

Multi caliber hammer

It was driving me nuts. I finally found a reference in the Cochran book. See attachment

I don’t have a photo but I remember the firing ping actually pivoted up for Rimfire and down for centerfire. It actually slid in a slot and locked under spring tension in either position as I remember.

It may have been a Distributor created and non factory feature that allowed the operator to use either ammo. In this case it would be the 44 Rimfire and/or the 44 American centerfire.


Murph

 

[Boulder350]

United States Arms made a revolver that fired both 44 rimfire and centerfire per Flaydermans.

The Plant, or Merwin and Bray, revolvers came with a 42 cup fire cylinder and a percussian cylinder too.

 

[Boulder350]

And the Plant Revolver picture with the cap and ball cylinder along with the 42 cup fire cylinder.

Wish this set was mine.

 

[BMur]

Original condition

Finding an unaltered 44 Rimfire American is no easy task. So many of them not unlike the Colt SAA 44 Rimfire were altered to a centerfire caliber. Simple reason was to be able to reload and shoot the gun! By 1876 centerfire reloading was a common practice. The Rimfire could not be reloaded. Most common I have found being an alteration to the 44 American centerfire cartridge initially.

However, I’ve also seen many altered to 44 Winchester simply because that round was available literally everywhere.

You can see from the photos that my example is in it’s original factory configuration. Which is pretty rare! Most are heavily beaten up from hard early frontier use.

You can’t apply the strict collector requirements for these rare examples or you’ll never be lucky enough to own one.

More often than not a degree of restoration is required.
I also have a Colt SAA 44 Rimfire that was converted to 44 WCF by modifying the hammer & hammer slot and changing the cylinder.

The ultimate results would be a marginal close shooting pistol since the 44 WCF at .427 diameter is too small for the .440 bore.
Even so I’ve seen several altered to this caliber during period of use.




Murph

 

[BMur]

44 Rf ammo

Just got really lucky and picked up this very early box of 44 Rimfire pistol ammo. Notice the original box says “FOR PISTOLS”!
I’m wondering where the 44 Henry association is actually documented.
I’ve seen plenty of redundant claims but nothing from that period.
No actual advertising or anything documented.

I’d like to actually see some documentation that prooves association between the 44 Henry rifle round and any 44 Rimfire pistol. This original box sure doesn’t support the claimed association. It clearly separates them.

Notice the original rounds are not head stamped? So they are early rounds. Pre-1883 at the latest.

I’ve also NEVER seen a 44 Henry rifle box of ammo that says FOR RIFLES AND PISTOLS?

I would think that the pistol rounds would be loaded with FFFG and the Henry rifle would be FFG.

Murph

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

Just got really lucky and picked up this very early box of 44 Rimfire pistol ammo. Notice the original box says “FOR PISTOLS”!
I’m wondering where the 44 Henry association is actually documented.
I’ve seen plenty of redundant claims but nothing from that period.
No actual advertising or anything documented.

I’d like to actually see some documentation that prooves association between the 44 Henry rifle round and any 44 Rimfire pistol. This original box sure doesn’t support the claimed association. It clearly separates them.

Notice the original rounds are not head stamped? So they are early rounds. Pre-1883 at the latest.

I’ve also NEVER seen a 44 Henry rifle box of ammo that says FOR RIFLES AND PISTOLS?

I would think that the pistol rounds would be loaded with FFFG and the Henry rifle would be FFG.

Murph

I find it very interesting that the box displays a "Trademark" that
appears to be an "H" impression on the head of a cartridge and
the cartridge cases don't have the "Trademark" on them.

There is a lot of documentation regarding rim fire No. 3 using
.44 Henry at the factory. One of S&W's distributors, Wexel and
DeGress had offices in Mexico City and handled most of the south
of the boarder sales and purchased most of the rim fire No. 3's
made. They specifically asked for No. 3's chambered for the .44
Henry RF.

There was a small tiff between S&W and Winchester regarding WRA
.44 Henry cartridges. The Turks complained that some of the .44
cartridges would swell their heads and seriously inhibit the cylinder's
rotation. S&W responded that 10% of the Winchester made cartridges
were "defective" and swell and sometimes burst where the raised
initial was impressed.

Winchester got wind of this and wrote a dunning letter to S&W
pointing out that .44 RF cartridges meant for rifles had 26gr. of
powder and .44 RF cartridges meant for pistols had 23gr. To para-
phrase the closing, Winchester said that If S&W had any complaints,
to bring them the Winchester first.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[BMur]

Documents

Webb,
Can you provide specific references. I’m not interested in modern references or published claims without proof.
I’m interested in period references/ letters/ advertisements/ etc. Anything at all that specifically ties the 44 Henry rifle round to the Pistol.
All of my studies on the Colt SAA who also sent many 44 Rimfire pistols to Wexel FACTORY REFERENCE the 44 Rimfire only. None reference the 44 Henry.
Only modern published material make that claim.

The cases were likely swelling because they were using the wrong round. This was common during the black powder era. Just because the round chambers doesn’t mean it’s the correct cartridge for that gun.

See attached example

Murph