So I'm trying to understand what is the hottest or biggest factory load for a 357 Mag. I thought it was just a numbers thing 158 the biggest? 135 125 110 being the smallest. Help me out here? Does the size of the bullet in grains designate how powerful it is? So I own a model 66-5 some people are saying they stay away from the hottest of ammo's because of the frame size...others say shoot it...your good just keep the forcing cone area clean. You can't shoot it enough to hurt it anyway with casual use. So what is the hottest round?
Ammo help?
- Thread starter dryrider
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skeeterbait
Well-known member
I'll take a stab at this. There is a lot of variables in answering your questions. It is not a simple answer. "Power" is a function of velocity, bullet mass, and bullet construction. The simple answer is that in general, light bullets have higher velocity and heavy bullets retain energy. Penetration is variable though depending on the ratio of velocity, mass and how well the bullet design expands and delivers it's energy. But max penetration is not what you are wanting to achieve in a defensive round, delivery of energy is. Overpenetration and passthrough can endanger persons and property not intended.
In 38 caliber pistol bullets I have seen 95 to 180 grain bullets. Most times, there is a bullet weight that is generally considered the "standard" for the given cartridge. In 38/357 this is often considered to be 158 grain. Fixed sight weapons usually have their sights indexed for this "standard" bullet weight. So if a fixed sight weapon is indexed to allow the point of aim and point of impact to coincide at that weight bullet, lighter bullets tend to hit lower and heavier bullets tend to hit higher than the "standard" weight.
Reasons exist though for shooting these other weight bullets. 95 and 110 grain bullets are often loaded in "reduced recoil" offerings. 125 grain are often loaded in "high velocity" loadings. 180 grain offerings are often loaded in hard cast or otherwise solid simi-jacketed offerings to maximize penetration for such activities as hunting.
The rounds that are sometimes considered questionable are the 125-135 grain high velocity rounds which are believed to cause flame cutting of the underside of the top strap above the forcing cone due to high volume of hot gas escaping because the powder is still burning as the bullet jumps the gap.
In 38 caliber pistol bullets I have seen 95 to 180 grain bullets. Most times, there is a bullet weight that is generally considered the "standard" for the given cartridge. In 38/357 this is often considered to be 158 grain. Fixed sight weapons usually have their sights indexed for this "standard" bullet weight. So if a fixed sight weapon is indexed to allow the point of aim and point of impact to coincide at that weight bullet, lighter bullets tend to hit lower and heavier bullets tend to hit higher than the "standard" weight.
Reasons exist though for shooting these other weight bullets. 95 and 110 grain bullets are often loaded in "reduced recoil" offerings. 125 grain are often loaded in "high velocity" loadings. 180 grain offerings are often loaded in hard cast or otherwise solid simi-jacketed offerings to maximize penetration for such activities as hunting.
The rounds that are sometimes considered questionable are the 125-135 grain high velocity rounds which are believed to cause flame cutting of the underside of the top strap above the forcing cone due to high volume of hot gas escaping because the powder is still burning as the bullet jumps the gap.
robertrwalsh
SWCA Member
I have seen loadings in .357 of 200 grain bullets, and I would not be surprised if there are heavier commercial loads out there. I have never seen one below 110 grain.
Any caliber has a functional range of weight and velocity. A lighter bullet and be pushed faster. If you go too fast the bullet comes apart in the bore. If you go too heavy it is like shooting a mortar, your trajectory sucks. Unless you are dealing with a very odd set of circumstances (light plastic or solid copper bullets or something along those lines) you end up with a range of from about 700 fps to about double that for reasonable handgun muzzle velocity.
If you want a "hot" .357 round and that is your sole criteria, the 110 grain or 125 grain half jacketed hollow point is the practical way to go. If you want to push it beyond that there are things like solid copper bullets, which are lighter and can be pushed much faster, or composite bullets made mostly out of epoxy with lead shot scattered throughout.
Just remember that fast is not necessarily the most effective.
Any caliber has a functional range of weight and velocity. A lighter bullet and be pushed faster. If you go too fast the bullet comes apart in the bore. If you go too heavy it is like shooting a mortar, your trajectory sucks. Unless you are dealing with a very odd set of circumstances (light plastic or solid copper bullets or something along those lines) you end up with a range of from about 700 fps to about double that for reasonable handgun muzzle velocity.
If you want a "hot" .357 round and that is your sole criteria, the 110 grain or 125 grain half jacketed hollow point is the practical way to go. If you want to push it beyond that there are things like solid copper bullets, which are lighter and can be pushed much faster, or composite bullets made mostly out of epoxy with lead shot scattered throughout.
Just remember that fast is not necessarily the most effective.
skeeterbait...so the 158 is not the bullet some people take issue with it's the smaller grain bullet 110 and 125 that just strikes me as odd...I would have guessed the bigger 158 gain was the one people thought should be avoided in large quantities.
skeeterbait
Well-known member
I have not heard of any 158 grain offerings damaging any steel K and L frame revolvers.
I purchased a box of high velocity 125 grain 357 and it caused a bit of flame cutting on my model 686 L frame. I gave the remainder of the box away.
I have read things written about high velocity 125 grain loads causing throat erosion and cracked forcing cones on model 66 K frames like yours. I have not see this in person.
It was explained to me that the lighter bullets leave the casing sooner allowing a lot of powder to be burned after the bullet has already entered the forcing cone. This causing a lot of hot gases to be ejected onto the frame and forcing cone while still burning.
I purchased a box of high velocity 125 grain 357 and it caused a bit of flame cutting on my model 686 L frame. I gave the remainder of the box away.
I have read things written about high velocity 125 grain loads causing throat erosion and cracked forcing cones on model 66 K frames like yours. I have not see this in person.
It was explained to me that the lighter bullets leave the casing sooner allowing a lot of powder to be burned after the bullet has already entered the forcing cone. This causing a lot of hot gases to be ejected onto the frame and forcing cone while still burning.
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skeeterbait
Well-known member
Yurko
US Veteran
what are we looking at with the pic?
Where is the evidence of "flamecutting"?
thanks
Where is the evidence of "flamecutting"?
thanks
The picture is showing the underside of the top strap of the frame. The flame cutting is evident as the rough line that is about 10 degrees off vertical in the picture. The line looks melted/pitted. You can imagine that, as the bullet leaves the chamber and heads down the barrel, it is followed by a cloud of hot gasses (literally an "explosion" of hot gases) and some still-unburned powder that have no time to cool or dissipate before striking the top strap.
bubbajoe45
Well-known member
Dryrider
Skeeterbait has given you a good description of 'power', however IMHO terms like 'overpenetration' are often overused in discussions of handgun stopping power. As SkBt correctly points out, you want the projectile (bullet) to expend it's energy on the target, not just poke a hole through it (like the old round nose lead types often did). There are many variables (like bone, muscle, inards, clothing, car doors, sheetrock, etc.). Many feel an 'ideal' case of the bullet stopping just inside the skin on the other side is what you want - the bullet has used all it's energy on the target and no innocents behind the target were penetrated. In reality, the goal is to stop the target from threatening you or yours and exit wounds are where a lot of blood loss and injury occur (better to have too much and not need it IMHO). So, ideally you want bullet expansion, which is using energy on the target, and just enough penetration (but not too much). How much is that? It really depends on what and where you are shooting and it's impossible to predict what will happen in any given circumstances.
Buffalo Bore makes a 180 gr hunting load for the .357 that is quite 'powerful'. On the other end of this spectrum they make a 125 gr @ 1700 fps (lighter, but faster (not recommended for your K frame)). Also marketed for hunting are the Hornady Leverevolutions (140 gr. @ 1440fps) I just load my .357s with a 135-158 gr. hollowpoint running about 1200 fps. Another factor to consider is recovery for subsequent shots: controlability.
I like the PMC Starfires (145 gr?), Speer Short Barrel Gold Dots, or just Remington 158gr. SJHP. But remember, while modern ammuntion is better than it used to be, there are no magic bullets.
Skeeterbait has given you a good description of 'power', however IMHO terms like 'overpenetration' are often overused in discussions of handgun stopping power. As SkBt correctly points out, you want the projectile (bullet) to expend it's energy on the target, not just poke a hole through it (like the old round nose lead types often did). There are many variables (like bone, muscle, inards, clothing, car doors, sheetrock, etc.). Many feel an 'ideal' case of the bullet stopping just inside the skin on the other side is what you want - the bullet has used all it's energy on the target and no innocents behind the target were penetrated. In reality, the goal is to stop the target from threatening you or yours and exit wounds are where a lot of blood loss and injury occur (better to have too much and not need it IMHO). So, ideally you want bullet expansion, which is using energy on the target, and just enough penetration (but not too much). How much is that? It really depends on what and where you are shooting and it's impossible to predict what will happen in any given circumstances.
Buffalo Bore makes a 180 gr hunting load for the .357 that is quite 'powerful'. On the other end of this spectrum they make a 125 gr @ 1700 fps (lighter, but faster (not recommended for your K frame)). Also marketed for hunting are the Hornady Leverevolutions (140 gr. @ 1440fps) I just load my .357s with a 135-158 gr. hollowpoint running about 1200 fps. Another factor to consider is recovery for subsequent shots: controlability.
I like the PMC Starfires (145 gr?), Speer Short Barrel Gold Dots, or just Remington 158gr. SJHP. But remember, while modern ammuntion is better than it used to be, there are no magic bullets.
skeeterbait
Well-known member
Torch like scoring of the underside of the top strap directly above the entrance of the forcing cone.
I think I'm starting to understand. I was thinking the 158 would be the bullet to avoid because it was the grain size that was about the biggest the store had at the time. I was under the impression that the 125 or 110 was smaller and it is... but those have more powder making them Hotter or more force if you will?
skeeterbait
Well-known member
Well not necessarily. You can't judge a load by bullet weight alone. The speed and quantity of the propellant used makes a big difference. It depends on what the manufacturer was trying to accomplish with the load. For instance, there has been a trend to load some 110 grn in low recoil loads, so there propellant charge is not too hot. There has been a trend to load some 125 at high velocity to try and recover some of the velocity lost to short barrels, so their propellant charge is hot. You just have to be familiar with a certain cartridge to be able to look at the specs and know that a bullet of xxx weight pushed at xxxx feet per second is a hot load or a mild load. Then you match the bullet construction style to what purpose you are applying it to. Consider the foot pounds of kenetic energy as a measure of force, but understand that bullet construction will effect whether the bullet will deliver that energy into the target or just pass on through.
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Yurko
US Veteran
I've been around these parts for 8 or 9 months & this is the first I've heard of flame cutting. So thanks for the explanation & drawing on the pic.
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