Ammo Question

[Mr_Flintstone]

I have been shooting Federal American Eagle 158 gr JSP .357 magnum in my Model 19 and Henry Big Boy. In the Model 19, the cases expand so much they stick in all chambers when trying to eject spent cartridges. In the Henry, they swell just above the web and cause a ring around the case that the sizer won’t remove when trying to reload the brass.

Has anyone else shot any of this and noticed it being on the high pressure side?

 

[Mistered]

Has anyone else shot any of this and noticed it being on the high pressure side?

I have been loading 16 grains of 296 with 158 gr jacketed bullets for my Henry BBB and while I don't know what the factory recipe is for the AE I suspect my load is probably 'hotter' and I never have experienced anything like this out of it with no resizing problems.
I cannot speak for those out of your M-19 as I never shoot any thing this hot out of my M-66.
I am however reading spotty reports of Henry owners who are experiencing something similar such as bulged or split cases but without being able to see the rifle or cases I take these reports with a 'grain of salt'.

 

[BC38]

My first thought is I wonder if you got a batch made with unusually thin brass.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Here is a picture I took of the brass shot from my Henry. The brass from the model 19 are similar (same diameter expansion), but there isn’t a sharp ring like there is from the Henry.

 

[Lostaro]

I bought a box of that same ammo last year and it seemed rather warm.

Primers flattened out, lots of blast and cases sticking in my 4" 686

I shot a cylinder and stopped....they seemed to do ok (still rather hot) in my bud's 686 so that box went home with him

Don't know if he shot them up or not.

 

[Mistered]

I just inspected some of my brass I shot out of my Henry and I too have a similar ring but it not nearly as sharp - more of a slight bulge but they eject normally out of my Henry with no problems.
I tried to insert these cases in my M-66 and while snug I could have pushed them all the way in but they would have been tight.
I 'miked' one of the cases and it measured .379 about half way up and .380 at the bulge so I don't consider a 'thou' of bulge a problem. If you have a mike or caliper do the same and lets see what your variance is.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

I just inspected some of my brass I shot out of my Henry and I too have a similar ring but it not nearly as sharp - more of a slight bulge but they eject normally out of my Henry with no problems.
I tried to insert these cases in my M-66 and while snug I could have pushed them all the way in but they would have been tight.
I 'miked' one of the cases and it measured .379 about half way up and .380 at the bulge so I don't consider a 'thou' of bulge a problem. If you have a mike or caliper do the same and lets see what your variance is.

Mine measure exactly the same, but when I try to insert them into the Model 19, they won’t seat all the way down without forcing.

Just for comparison, I made up some 140 gr XTP (only jacketed I have right now) over 18 gr IMR4227 with a heavy crimp on new Armscor brass. That ought to be plenty hot. Here are some pics for comparison. The hand loads don’t leave the ring like the Federal.

 

[Alk8944]

It never fails to amaze me how often someone will post exactly this same question and no one begins the responses with " Don't worry about it, this is perfectly normal!"


Well, guess what, don't worry about it, this is perfectly normal!


ALL cartridges fired in ALL firearms of any description expand if you look closely enough. It is because of tolerances and necessary clearances! The cartridges are at least .001" smaller in diameter than the chamber in all dimensions and expand to contact the chamber walls when fired. They then spring back slightly to allow free extraction. Chambers and cartridges have minimum/maximum dimensions. Typically if a chamber is maximum and the cartridge fired in it has minimum dimensions the total clearance, and room for expansion, can range up to .008-.012". In this situation the expansion is very noticeable. The "sharpness" of the expansion ring depends on the pressure of the particular load, a .357 Magnum will display a distinct sharpness as seem here, while the expansion ring of .38 Special will be distinctly "softer" due to the lower pressure.


Cases CANNOT expand too much, they are stopped by the chamber wall and can go no farther!


Reading posts like this make me wonder if anyone has actually fired any sort of gun and paid attention to what happens! Or do all of you usually buy factory ammunition, eject the cases on the ground and leave them lay? That is what it sounds like.


So far as cases sticking in the revolver there are several possible explanations, not the least of which is you are extracting six at a time instead of one as in the rifle, so it will be six times as hard at least.

 

[WR Moore]

Besides the comments from Alk8944, looking at the pictures gives us a clue.

The head of the case is solid, the case walls taper as they go up. The ring forms at a point where the pressures are enough to expand the brass, but the brass is thick enough not to spring back to the same extent as the thinner case walls. As noted, this is normal.

Sizing dies generally don't resize completely that far down the case walls, they do go far enough down to resize the case to dimensions that allow reloading and normal operation.

They do make small base sizing dies for some rifle cartridges to return that area of the case closer to original dimensions. No one has demonstrated a need for that with pistol cartridges.

 

[scooter123]

I've used this particular ammunition in my model 620 (an L frame 7 shooter with a 2 piece tensioned barrel) and my 1892 Winchester that a previous owner had re-barreled for 357 Magnum sometime in it's past. I have had zero issues like you have described.

Note, the 357 Magnum case has the case wall thicken near the base and based on the pics you posted I would suspect that your Henry has the chambers bored oversize. As for your model 19, if it's a Bangor Punta era revolver dating to the late 60's to 70's you need to be aware that S&W had a bit of a reputation for spotty quality at that time. It's quite possible you have chambers with a poor surface finish that would benefit from having the chambers lapped. Another possibility is that some knucklehead in it's past loaded up some over pressure 357 Magnums and bulged the chambers.

Basically it's my belief that this ammunition is hot enough to expose some manufacturing defects not noticeable with a milder load. BTW, I don't do a lot of shooting with this particular ammo in my 620 because I find the recoil to be harsh enough I start flinching after 3 cylinders. Instead I prefer to use my Dan Wesson 15-2 because it's a bit of a tank in comparison to my 620.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Yes it looks like a full load from that case.

It also looks like your cylinder might be a little over size.

That ring is there do to your sizing die not being able to go any lower, probably.

If it will chamber when reloaded, go for it......... but I do not think it will last too long,
being worked that hard, for a brass caseif using full loads all
the time in that revolver.

 

[stansdds]

Federal brass has a reputation for being softer and having thinner walls than brass from many other manufacturers.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Federal brass has a reputation for being softer and having thinner walls than brass from many other manufacturers.

Thanks for that bit of information. After searching the internet, there appears to be lots of anecdotal evidence to back this up. I think maybe a combination of soft brass, hot loads, and *possibly a somewhat oversize chamber are the cause of this issue. The only reason I call it an issue is difficulty in making the Federal brass fired from my Henry fit into my revolver. I have done it by placing a penny on top of my shell holder, running the brass all the way into my Lee FCD with the collect removed and the adjuster knob all the way out; and once resized, twisting the knob in until the case comes back out. It’s a time consuming process though, and I’d rather not do it if I could avoid it.

 

[stansdds]

Thanks for that bit of information. After searching the internet, there appears to be lots of anecdotal evidence to back this up. I think maybe a combination of soft brass, hot loads, and *possibly a somewhat oversize chamber are the cause of this issue. The only reason I call it an issue is difficulty in making the Federal brass fired from my Henry fit into my revolver. I have done it by placing a penny on top of my shell holder, running the brass all the way into my Lee FCD with the collect removed and the adjuster knob all the way out; and once resized, twisting the knob in until the case comes back out. It’s a time consuming process though, and I’d rather not do it if I could avoid it.

I know my own experience with Federal brass has confirmed it's reputation. Back when I was a IPSC/USPSA competitor, I was using a 1911 with a Bar-Sto barrel. The chamber was cut to minimum specs and the only brass that would reliably chamber with cast lead 0.452" bullets was Federal brass. Cutting several brands of 1911 brass in half and measuring the internal case capacities also confirmed that Federal brass had thinner case walls and case head.