Ammunition Warnings BP vs. Smokeless

[Polyphemus]

I just got hold of Chicoine's book on 'smithing antiques, in anticipation of working on my Safety Hammerless 4th mod.

Many warnings here against 'smokeless' rounds, with special reference to frame-stretching.

Are these warnings against contemporary _commercial_ loads? Or is there some generic evil in Bullseye or Red-Dot?

Since I intend to load my own, I would like to know if reduced charges of these propellants are caution enough.

Thanks

 

[Polyphemus]

I just got hold of Chicoine's book on 'smithing antiques, in anticipation of working on my Safety Hammerless 4th mod.

Many warnings here against 'smokeless' rounds, with special reference to frame-stretching.

Are these warnings against contemporary _commercial_ loads? Or is there some generic evil in Bullseye or Red-Dot?

Since I intend to load my own, I would like to know if reduced charges of these propellants are caution enough.

Thanks

 

[Sebago Son]

These are both low bulk, high energy powders, Bullseye especially.

I wouldn't use them.

There are Black Powder substitutes that are probably more appropriate. Pyrodex CTG grade comes to mind... however, read the manuals first.... remember that it is a VOLUME equivalant for black, not a weight equivalant.

Good luck.

Drew
S&WCA 1802

 

[Polyphemus]

My Lee die set includes 'recipes' for 2.4 gr of Red Dot and 2.2 gr of Bullseye behind 146 gr lead bullets.

I gather that these should be reduced for heavier projectiles, even in modern guns. Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I shoot a lot of Black Powder loaded ammo. You cannot reproduce the pressure curve of Black Powder with any modern Smokeless pistol powder. It is not just a question of overall pressure, it is also related to the width of the pressure spike. Smokeless powders produce a much sharper pressure spike than Black Powder. It is this sharp spike of short duration that does just as much damage to old steel as the higher pressure does. Think of it like hitting something fragile with a hammer compared to a rubber mallet. Here is a comparison of a couple of shotgun loads produced with Black Powder and Smokeless powder. Yes, they are shotgun loads, not pistol loads, but they illustrate the point. Both of these loads achieved the same velocity with the same weight of shot. Notice how much more rapidly the Smokeless charge reached its maximum pressure compared to the much gentler pressure curve of the Black Powder load. Not only is the Smokeless curve higher in pressure, but the pressure spike is much more abrubt.

Colt did not factory warranty the Single Action Army for Smokeless Powder until 1900. This is recorded fact. I have tried to find similar information regarding S&W, but so far I have not found anything concrete, beyond the information mentioned by Chicoine. But I find it hard to believe that Smith would have been able to find steel any stronger than Colt in the same time period.

I don't own any 19th Century Smiths, although I just did purchase a Model 1899 probably made in 1902. I'm not sure what powder I am going to use in it. But if I did own any Smiths made before 1900 I would not shoot any sort of Smokeless ammo in them, I would only shoot them with Black Powder.

This is not a guarantee the gun is going to blow up on you if you use modern Smokeless powder in it. Many shooters do. I would not.

 

[john traveler]

I pay LOTS of attention to the warnings not to use smokeless powder in blackpowder era guns.

Well over 30 years ago, I ruined a breaktop .38 S&W firing loading manual "starting loads" using Red Dot and 125 grain RNL bullets. The first cylinder load split a chamber. I took it to a gunsmith, and he said it may not be your fault, the steel of the 1880s was not what it is today. However, he did repeat the warning not to fire smokeless loads in a gun that old.

Some transitional era rifles such as the Remington Rolling Block design did make the transition from BP loads to smokeless. But they were relatively massive in construction, unlike most handgun designs.

After learning that S&W did not start to heat treat it's cylinders until the late 1920s, it becomes even more important to watch what ammo is being used in antique handguns.

 

[Pistol Toter]

Driftwood Johnson,
I already was aware of the difference in the powders, but had never seen a graph such as the one you posted. I find that very interesting. Thank you for sharing that. I think I'm going to copy that so that I may share it with my sons. I don't reload or have any guns (yet) of that era but that's not to say that somday I or my sons won't. Again thanks!!

 

[2152hq]

The damascus barrel shotgun crowd has plenty of info with pressure gun graphs to show that some,,not all,,smokeless powders, along with the other very specific components can achieve the same pressure curve as a safe BP load of known componets. This info is sometimes taken too loosely. No interchanging of components in those loads allowed at all or you may be running the pressure into an unknown range. Damascus barreled shotguns are still routinely reproofed in the UK now and shot with modern out of the box ammunition. One old line manufacturer has recently built some guns using 'new/old stock' damascus barrel blanks.
I haven't seen any loads worked up for handguns or rifles like those done for shotguns. So I would refraine from using smokeless in the older BP handguns and rifles too. I have loaded and shot some in the past, but no more till I can be shown specific pressure gun readings and the components used to achieve the needed results. No guessing allow in that game. The graph shown doesn't list the name of the smokless powder used, but if that is for a shotshell load, the max pressure given @ approx 9K is what most over the counter shotshells will do. Reloading can easily get the max pressure down into the high 3K/ low 4K psi range with some of the IMR powders. But that doesn't tell you anything about the pressure curve/spike. Only selective testing of the load can do that.

 

[JohnHenryD]

To each his own but I wouldn't use Pyrodex as a substitute for black powder. Personally I have found it to be more corrosive and harder to clean up than BP. I'm not sure what the advantage is as I haven't found it.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

The advantage of Pyrodex is that unlike real Black Powder, which is classified as a true explosive, Pyrodex and all the other BP substitutes are classified by the Federal Government as progressive burning propellants. In that sense, storage and sales regulations are no different than any other Smokeless powder. The bottom line is that plenty of municipalities forbid the storage and sale of real Black Powder, while they do not forbid the storage and sale of the substitutes. That is the advantage.

I have to drive over an hour to buy real Black Powder over the counter. If I wanted to I could just drive up the street to buy Pyrodex.

 

[JohnHenryD]

I haven't had any trouble getting BP when I needed it but I don't use a lot of it. Most of my blackpowder cartridge shooting is with over the counter loaded stuff. I wasn't aware of the law you are speaking of. Is this a Massachusetts law or a federal thing?

 

[john traveler]

Federal. The impetus for developing smokeless BP substitutes was based on the "explosive" regulation rating of BP for interstate shipping.

Pyrodex, etc that give blackpowder performance but with the smokeless propellant (not explosive) rating is much easiver for dealers to obtain.

 

[ttpete]

Originally posted by Polyphemus:
My Lee die set includes 'recipes' for 2.4 gr of Red Dot and 2.2 gr of Bullseye behind 146 gr lead bullets.

I gather that these should be reduced for heavier projectiles, even in modern guns. Any advice would be appreciated.

Both the old Ideal Handbooks and Phil Sharpe's handloading book show 1.4 gr. Bullseye with an 85-88 gr. lead bullet for .32 S&W,and 2 gr. Bullseye with a 146 gr. lead bullet for .38 S&W. Loads this small really should be weighed. The reason Bullseye is specified is that it burns very well with light loads in a relatively large space. Some powders will tend to squib under these conditions.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I haven't had any trouble getting BP when I needed it but I don't use a lot of it. Most of my blackpowder cartridge shooting is with over the counter loaded stuff. I wasn't aware of the law you are speaking of. Is this a Massachusetts law or a federal thing?

While the classification of Black Powder is a Federal dictate, it is local municipal ordinances that usually spell out whether or not real Black Powder can be stored or bought locally. Municipalities in many states, not just here, restrict what types of propellants may and may not be legally sold or stored within their borders. Modern Smokeless propellants and the subs do not cause town fathers as much worry as explosives like Black Powder.

In addition, since 911 the ATF has been more particular about storing and selling explosives. For instance, the gun shop I used to buy real BP from, about an hour away in the Live Free or Die state of New Hampshire made the mistake of allowing their license to sell real BP expire. When they reapplied (instead of simply renewing) the local ATF agent told them the storage facility they had been using for years was no longer acceptable. It was too close to a road. Rather than rent land for a new storage facility, they stopped selling real BP and only sell the substitutes now. The guy just up the road, also in NH, only carries the subs because of town regulations. There is a guy here in Mass who still sells real BP, and he is only 1/2 hour away, but he will only sell me 1 pound at a time (his choice). I use A LOT of BP and 1 pound won't go very far.

I usually go in with a friend and we buy a case of 25 pounds at a time. Like I said, we use A LOT of BP. We store the case at his house in NH. But if we run low and I need three pounds or so to get by I have to drive over an hour up to Maine in order to buy that much over the counter.

 

[Polyphemus]

Thanks ttpete

I weigh all my loads so far. Bullseye is so low bulk that I don't trust any other measure available to me. Checking Lee dipper loads against the scale is a scary experience.