An open carry observation

[Clayguy]

Not trying to derail this thread, but the VA's restrictive gun policy was mentioned. For several years I took my father to a VA hospital for appointments. I am curious to see if I'm the only one who has a problem with any entity - government or otherwise - telling me that I can't have a weapon secured in my vehicle while parked in their parking lot. Given that our drive from my dad's residence to the VA was about 140 miles, compliance with that rule resulted in disarming me for the entire trip. Not logical or acceptable to me. In fact, I remember reading several years ago about a lawsuit brought by a group of employees against their employer who had a similar policy - no guns in the buildings or parking lot. My recollection is that the courts ruled in the employees' favor, saying that you can restrict guns in the building, but you can't disarm your employees on their trip to work.
Please understand that it's not my intention to slam the VA. They were good to my dad and it was appreciated. And if they want to restrict guns in the building I get it even if I don't particularly like it. I can imagine that someone might say, "just park off the premises". Toward the end of my father's life he wasn't able to walk any great distance so that really wasn't an option.
Anybody else find that VA policy - telling you that you can't have a gun in your vehicle - to be taking things a bit far?

I go to the VA hospital several times a year and they have signs prohibiting firearms in the building, but have never herd of any restriction in a vehicle parked in the parking are. I wonder if the rules vary according to location?

 

[Doriangray6]

More like gimpy old guy with a gun showing? WooHoo! FREE GUN!

I see the aggressively negative comments of yourself and other self appointed "experts" on how a person chooses to carry a firearm as indicative of a growing herd mentality in the US. Not just in this matter but in all aspects of our society.
Where anybody that doesn't join and follow the herd isn't just regarded as an individual who happens to think, act, or live different but as someone to be attacked, vilified, condemned, and even feared.
It's a sad development in a country where individualism, personal choice, and thinking outside the box were once regarded as good things and the basis of many of the great ideas and developments that originated in the US.
Historically the decline of these qualities and their replacement by a herd mentality have always been indications of a country's social and intellectual decline and stagnation.

 

[Sgt. Buzzard]

Seven pages in, I'll finally comment. I'm a gimpy old guy who's carry gun never shows. Surprise is my only advantage. I shoot twice a month with a bunch of other gimpy old LEO's from assorted agencies. On our range and lunch days we have our range toys in cases. And the carry guns in pretty deep cover. We all like it that way, no debate, no show. YMMV. You wanna be the target, cool.

 

[RestingBear]

Clayguy, I can't speak for every VA facility, but the one that cares for my dad clearly allowed no guns on the entire property. I will PM you the name. The first time that I took my father to the VA I was carrying concealed, having no idea that I would pull into their parking lot past a sign that clearly said "No Weapons Allowed on VA Property" or something to that effect. So I am in an immediate quandary. I obviously cant make my handgun disappear. So, I pull up to the main entrance to let my father out near the door. Here comes a young twenty-something valet who wants to park the car for us. Dilemma deepens. So I explain to him that I am armed as a retired state trooper and that I wasn't aware of their policy restricting guns in the parking lot. I thought he was going to stroke out. He starts stammering around in a manner that makes clear that I have just completely rocked his world. After two or three minutes of this standoff, I finally convince him that I can secure my gun in the car and he relents, saying, "We never had this discussion".

 

[Saab]

I wear shorts year round.

I wear shorts year-round also.
I also seemed to recall, seeing hundreds of women in skirts in the winter…

 

[max503]

There are times I would open carry if it were legal here. On my bicycle would be one of them.

 

[Smoke]

Anybody else find that VA policy - telling you that you can't have a gun in your vehicle - to be taking things a bit far?

Honestly their house, their rules. I don't have to drive quite as far as you did to the nearest VA but it's a journey.

The VA I go to now is in a shared space. There is a parking garage roughly a half a mile from their parking lot. I pull in there and disarm in the dark where nobody can see me and then I drive the rest of the way to the VA.

I think I've mentioned this before but in the four years I've been going to the VA I have never been asked if I have weapons in my home. What they always ask is do I feel safe at home?

I've mentioned the one provider that always wanted to talk to me about guns and since we've moved and we now have livestock it seems to be assumed that we have guns but it's never a topic I bring up.

 

[oldcorps76]

I have been packing at Mass for 20 years, back then intermittently. Now, as St. Elmer would say in paraphrase, I might forget my britches before I forget my Ruger RXM/RMR in a Dale Fricke AIWB with body tuck attachment. A simple Lands End polo covers it all. Even in summer. And I am all of 5'7".

 

[tkelley3]

Several times I have read articles that claim Open Carry prevents crime. I'm calling BS on that. There is absolutely no way to statistically measure that false assumption. Moreover, we live a society where a significant number of people are terrified of guns and if they see a civilian wearing a handgun openly they assume he's a bad guy and will likely call the police. Please understand that a call to police for a "man with a gun". is a very hot call and you'll get attention like you cannot possibly imagine. If you are the kind of person whose ego needs to open carry then you should not be carrying. Period. "Because it's my right". is just a plain stupid statement. BTW, wearing open carry and going on the internet and buying a badge that resembles a police badge that says "Concealed Carry" will get you arrested in many jurisdictions so you can then have a one on one discussion with a judge. Open carry, though legal in many states, is just plain stupid!

I'd like to make a comment to expand on the range of what is Open Carry. I am waiting for it to become legal in my state and will and do carry for some personal reasons that are NON of Anyones business. BUT, I understand and can agree with you at the same time. I my Case I want to wear my holster on the outside of my belt, my Long T Shirt will cover it just fine. I don't plan on advertising I carry, but I hate wearing my belly belt and IW holsters. Open Carry should not be "Out in the Open - Walking around like you are on some TV show " It means in my case....not having to hide it so much.

 

[biku324]

It's legal in NM for those over 18 to ride their motorcycles without helmets or eye protection. I never do; it's about simple risk reduction.

 

[Doriangray6]

I go to the VA hospital several times a year and they have signs prohibiting firearms in the building, but have never herd of any restriction in a vehicle parked in the parking are. I wonder if the rules vary according to location?

Firearms and anything else that VA staff or security consider to be a weapon are forbidden on "all" VA property, including parking lots, lawns, etc., unless you have official authorization.
Even staff members aren't allowed to have knives with blades over a certain length in most facilities.
I once had a security person tell me that I couldn't have my Leatherman with me at one at a VA hospital in Colorado.

 

[walkin' trails]

So someone tell me exactly how many OCers have been killed or had their gun taken because of that.

I know myself of two neighbors who had their guns stolen because they left them in the car in their driveway with the keys also in it. There are probably hundreds if not thousands pilfered in that manner every year.

FWIW, YkuTube sometime features OC gun snatches captured by security cams in businesses and public areas. Don't know hats in TikTik, but wouldn't be surprised there's some of that content there too.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Open carry rarely results in a gun being grabbed. The half dozen surveillance videos of it happening get played ad nauseum. And it definitely doesn't result in "shoot me first." I challenge anyone to provide surveillance video or anecdotal evidence of an armed robbery, in the United States, not Brazil or Colombia, beginning with the perpetrator(s) shooting an open carrier before approaching the till , , ,

 

[JJFmpm]

Your statement shows a true lack of understanding of the current criminal activity in too many areas. When a group of teen agers will beat a man to death in a city park in the middle of the day and most crime is committed in groups, to think that you're not making yourself a target for someone who wants a firearm or just would like to deprive you of yours.

Statistically a police office is several times more likely to be shot or killed in an active shooter incident than a someone carrying concealed, Why, because a uniformed police office is perceived as the biggest threat which makes them a bigger target.

In such a situation I don't want anyone to know I'm carrying until I'm ready for them to know. To think you are going to intimidate someone from not targeting you because they "see" you carrying is like a kid playing cowboy. There is a reason the military uses stealth rather than marching out in huge numbers in bright red uniforms like they did 250 years ago.

Personally I don't want to get ganged up on by surprise or knocked in the back of the head (I'm sure you think you have eyes in the back of your head but at 60 I know I don't) by someone who just wants to gain a firearm. For many in the criminal community it's worth it's weight in gold.

I agree with Greg's comments.

As a 60+ year south Florida / Miami resident, over 10-year CCL licensed and NRA trainer, my concern is the extraordinary amount of folks in south Florida area who are doing permit-less carry. Many come from other countries and are not necessarily aligned with our 2A rights and cultural traditions. I can categorically state most have not taken any type of training and are not familiar with our Florida Statutes.

Given current ruling, on September 25, these folks will do open carry. Like with fast and expensive cars as well as clothes and jewelry, many will make open carry a "fashion statement" - large and flashy pistol + designer holster and accessories. Just as we have an overabundance of stolen fancy cars and boats, these folks will help create an environment for "pistoljacking" and trade of stolen firearms.

For myself, my opinion is that CCW and staying on top of training are best approach for self-defense, we live in an urban environment. Unlike our forefathers who openly carried during the early 1900's, the 1800's and early pioneer days, most urban folks today are not accustomed to seeing folks practicing open carry unless it is a LE officer.

With rights come responsibilities, I trust safety and training will be the norm to open carry.

 

[Law-dog]

As you mentioned reaction time can be a deciding factor and in my case, due to the arthritis in my hands, it's quicker and easier for me to react and access a handgun on my side rather than from a concealed carry position.
But just as with many other firearm related matters there is no "one size fits all" answer to carrying concealed or openly so all a person can do is decide on what works best for them and practice, practice, practice.

Yes sir, and from experience I can say if you sense trouble your open carry gun can be on the opposite side from the offender or might be below the line of sight behind a car outside or maybe a shopping counter inside or perhaps my whole or part of my body including that gun being out of sight.

I take cortisone shots every 90 days in both wrists. Sometimes the shots alone are very painful, I learned long ago from doctors that the more it hurts, the more arthritis is in that spot, and the more relief I can expect.

I do not find the arthritis matters much for carry of perhaps 2-3 rounds in an actual a battle. But, if I practice draw and fire several times at the range, it starts hurting pretty quick and pretty bad. I have a 5 shot 44 mag, little thing that weighs 31 ounces or so. Shoots a 240 grain bullet about 1,250 fps.

833 foot pounds, a wonderful amount of power for defense against anything from black bear on down. That said, on some days, I fire the 5 rounds in the cylinder, I am done. I usually force myself to fire 5 more, but those come at a high price, so now, I just empty the gun firing as accurately as I can, and consider it both practice and placing fresh ammo in the gun.

And no, the 44s are not my daily carry guns, just for trips to the woods. Where well, you never know. I have been with 4o foot of a cougar, and 40 inches of a bear at 3 am in my tent, I am a bit paranoid sometimes.

In town i am fine with a 9mm, 40 38 or about anything that produces over 300 fpe.

Getting old sucks. Hang in there.

 

[MelvinWalker]

...most urban folks today are not accustomed to seeing folks practicing open carry unless it is a LE officer....

I am not concerned with people that are "not accustomed" to it... If it's legal, then it's legal. The more these folks see firearms on a daily basis, the more they will be used to seeing their neighbors with them.

In fact, I would be far more concerned with an authoritarian Miami cop detaining me because he said I was "printing" and therefore judged as open carrying, which was before a violation... Too much officer discretion for a vague law about concealment.

 

[Law-dog]

I go to the VA hospital several times a year and they have signs prohibiting firearms in the building, but have never herd of any restriction in a vehicle parked in the parking are. I wonder if the rules vary according to location?

There is no legal way you can drive your car into a designated VA parking lot at a VA medical center legally, unless there is a recent change. Below is the policy manual for VA police officers when the learn a patient or any other person has brought any gun onto VA property. Read it closely, if you see a sign, that says no weapons, you have no defense whatsoever. I am an attorney, I park across the street.
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f. Official and Privately Owned Firearms (1) Generally persons entering VA premises will not be permitted to possess firearms. Exceptions to this are: (a) Office of Security and Law Enforcement personnel; (b) VA police officers authorized by the Secretary of Veterans Affairs to be armed for designated official purposes (policy and procedure relating to the arming of VA police are contained in VA Directive and Handbook 0720, Program to Arm Department of Veterans Affairs Police); and (c) Members of law enforcement agencies of Federal, state, county, and municipal governments on official visits to the facility. 1. Directors are not authorized to bar armed law enforcement officers on official business from entering patient care areas even when the introduction of a weapon into the area is considered hazardous. 2. The hazards should be discussed with the officers and an arrangement sought whereby the patient is escorted from the ward by medical personnel and VA police officers if appropriate. (2) Privately owned firearms will be surrendered to a VA police officer for safekeeping. (a) A firearm must be unloaded and placed in storage under two-locked barrier control. 46 August 11, 2000 VA HANDBOOK 0730 (b) Two-locked barrier control requires as a minimum that weapons be stored in a locked container within a locked room. (c) The intent of a person introducing a firearm to VA property and circumstances involved will be assessed in determining whether prosecution is warranted. (3) To the maximum extent practicable, a patient who legally possesses a firearm and is seeking admission, will be requested to dispose of it prior to admission in lieu of surrendering the weapon. When the patient cannot remove the weapon from VA property or transfer it to an accompanying family member, the patient should be requested to contact a family member or guardian and request that individual to take possession of the firearm from VA as soon as possible. (4) Firearms discovered or confiscated on facility grounds will be preserved and stored as evidence. (5) Firearms which are determined to no longer possess evidentiary value will not be retained. (a) Any firearm seized in conjunction with an arrest will be disposed of in accordance with the directions of the court. (b) If it is a criminal violation of state or local law for individuals being treated for psychiatric disorders to be in possession of a firearm, the firearm should be given to a family member in compliance with state and local laws. This will be accomplished in consultation with Regional Counsel. (c) Since it is unlawful to do so, a firearm will not be returned directly to any person, if there is reason to believe that person meets one of the definitions contained in Title 18 U.S.C. § 922(d). Disposal of a firearm under such circumstances will be coordinated with Regional Counsel. (d) Any firearm which is contraband or cannot be returned to its owner for any reason will be promptly turned over to Acquisition and Materiel Management Service. A receipt for the weapon will be obtained and provided the owner of the weapon, if known.


( important note here. normally you must prove you own the gun before they will give it back. An original bill of sale or something to that effect. If you bought it for cash at a gun show and cannot prove you own the gun, you may not get it back under their contraband rule,)
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It does say they will give an opportunity to take the gun elsewhere before admission, but how would that happen, we just drive into the VA lot and have no contact with anyone.

As I stated in a former post, they need probable cause to search your vehicle. If they see an empty holster, that is enough, or maybe if they see ammo, doing stupid stuff wins stupid prizes.

If you have a small gun safe in your car trunk or truck, empty the gun, remove the magazine and lock the gun without magazine or ammo into the safe and do not tell them or give them permission to search. Unless you do or say something that gives them probable cause, they need a warrant. As a former prosecutor, I am not going to a judge unless you have said or done something that makes you a risk and i can convince the judge you likely have a gun. Like that empty holster or ammo visibly seen.

Again, I am a retired attorney, I park across the street.