Annual Qualifications

[Model39]

Annual HR-218 Qualifications

Now that all the confusion/wording was straightened out up here last year allowing us to get our HR-218 certification cards, I will be qualifying each June. Last year when I qualified, I used my old duty gun, a 4" no dash Model 66. I was the only one using a revolver in the entire group. I do own alot of automatics, and have nothing against them, but you can't beat a revolver. Simple to use, almost no mechanical problems, and they shoot where you point them, as long as your sights are in alignment. I say to Palmetto Sharpshooter, stick with a revolver.

 

[XTrooper]

Spray and Pray with a high capacity autoloader is not the way to win a gunfight and places non-involved persons at risk. Tactics and marksmanship are more effective skills.

Other than stating the obvious, I don't understand the point of this statement. I know you can't possibly be claiming that everyone who carries a "high capacity" semi-automatic weapon is, by nature, a "spray and pray" shooter. If you are a skilled and disciplined shooter before you pick up a semi-automatic or automatic weapon, you'll remain a skilled and disciplined shooter; the weapon type won't change this. As in most cases, proper training is the key.

 

[Roadranger]

Being a retired trooper myself, I agree with X trooper about it being a killing field in the real world. I started in 1974 with a revolver, a M66, just like everbody else. Since being retired, I have no departmental regulations and usually use a different gun each year to quailify. This year, April 8, I used a M657 41 Magnum, 4" just because I could with light magnum 170 gr. Sierra bullets. My real world go to gun is a P226 in 357Sig or 9mm. I keep a Mossberg 590 under the back seat in my Z71 just in case. Bob!

 

[panamajack310]

You are so lucky, My agency just banned me from carrying revolvers last year as none of the instructors know about revolvers and they are afraid that no one can use my gun and reload it if I get hurt. I say you are a lucky man to still be able to carry a revolver. I am now stuck to only carry my Glock 22 "which I think are the worst guns in the world! MAN I HATE GLOCKS!!!" I was carrying my 625 and 19 as duty and back up gun...Last year I even got to carry my model 544 in 44-40...

 

[johnsonl]

Not to brag, but I can do what you did there. Easy. I do have problems with people saying they never actually see me shoot. Then there are all the questions about the powder burns on the targets. I have to keep explaining over and over that it's just the bullets fragmenting when they hit bugs and such on the way down range. GO FIGURE.

Faulty ammo would be my guess, however, shooting in bright sunlight will cause the shiny bullets to reflect and scorch the target as they pass through.
I'm just sayin', it's pretty common...
...especially if the loser buys lunch.

 

[johnsonl]

You are so lucky, My agency just banned me from carrying revolvers last year as none of the instructors know about revolvers and they are afraid that no one can use my gun and reload it if I get hurt. I say you are a lucky man to still be able to carry a revolver. I am now stuck to only carry my Glock 22 "which I think are the worst guns in the world! MAN I HATE GLOCKS!!!" I was carrying my 625 and 19 as duty and back up gun...Last year I even got to carry my model 544 in 44-40...

One of my favorite practical excersises as an FI was to stage several different types of handguns and long guns at various shooting positions on the tactical range. The shooter would approach a position, take cover and engage the target as best they could. Some shooters were very familiar with all types of firearms and some were not. The wise ones did what they could with what they had and moved to another position if they chose not to pick up a firearm that they were not familiar with. Every shooter managed to learn something about themselves on that course.

 

[Broadside]

However; the FBI's Uniform Crime Report stats for the past 50 years still shows the average law enforcement gun fight is fast, up close, in low light, with less than 3 shots fired.

MOONDAWG - I'm confused by what you are saying here. Are you citing a 50-year average, or are you citing an annual average and saying it is unchanged over the past 50 years?

 

[elm_creek_smith]

Our semi-annual qualification is in May. All but three of us carry Glock 22s. Our boss carries a Nighthawk .45 ACP. Bill and I carry issued pre-lock/pre-MIM S&W Model 686-1s.

Last year, with a 96% I beat everyone except the boss with my 6-shooter. The course of fire is 25 rounds from 25 (6 rds), 15 (2 rds), 7 (4 rds), 5 (4 rds), 3 (6 rds), and 1 (3 rds) yards. We qualify with service ammo, and the .357 Magnum ammo is Remington 125 grain Golden Saber.

This year I'm just coming off a surgical absence, so we'll see.

ECS

 

[jdh]

Other than stating the obvious, I don't understand the point of this statement. I know you can't possibly be claiming that everyone who carries a "high capacity" semi-automatic weapon is, by nature, a "spray and pray" shooter. If you are a skilled and disciplined shooter before you pick up a semi-automatic or automatic weapon, you'll remain a skilled and disciplined shooter; the weapon type won't change this. As in most cases, proper training is the key.

It would appear enough of "us" are when you consistently see headlines like OFFICERS FIRE 98 ROUNDS, GUNMAN SUFFERS 3 MINOR INJURIES.

What I am saying is do not let the plethora of ammo in your pistol and on your belt lull you into a false sense of invulnerability.

 

[nipster]

It would appear enough of "us" are when you consistently see headlines like OFFICERS FIRE 98 ROUNDS, GUNMAN SUFFERS 3 MINOR INJURIES.

What I am saying is do not let the plethora of ammo in your pistol and on your belt lull you into a false sense of invulnerability.

Or sometimes they just do it because they can.

Florida Police Shot Suspected Cop Killer 68 Times | Fox News

 

[panamajack310]

MOONDAWG - I'm confused by what you are saying here. Are you citing a 50-year average, or are you citing an annual average and saying it is unchanged over the past 50 years?

What he is trying to say is that from 1940's to the 1980s while law enforcement was using revolvers the average officer shot 2 rounds during a fire fight to take out the bad guy..As semi autos were introduced into the law enforcement scene the national average creeped up. Now the average officer will shoot 5 to 7.

 

[K Frame Keith]

Just shot my qualifications last week also. As an R.P.O. I qualify with my Kimber .45acp and S&W M60 twice a year on the same courses of fire required of active duty officers, ( 1 yd. to 25 yd.). I admit to carrying the M60 the majority of the time.

 

[blueknight7]

I carried a revolver from 1973, to 1990. It served its purpose, more than once. Yeah, it was a Colt Python, and .357 125 gr. Remington JHP. From 1990 til retirement, in 2003, I carried a 10 mm. No, it was not a S&W 610. It was a Colt Delta Elite, then a S&W 1006, and 1026, then a Glock 20, and a Glock 29. Nothing I owned out shot the Python, but, the Colt Delta Elite tied in one time, on a possible.
Now, all i have to do is qual once a year to keep my retired status up. Its pretty simple with the Sig P229, in .357 Sig, and I do have the .40 S&W barrel too.
It kinda whatever mood I am in, on what caliber I use. Yup, still have the S&W 1026, the Colt Delta Elite, and the Glock 29. Trouble is, the Sig just fits me better. Really liking the Sig. .357. Doesn't kick, and ballistics like what saved my life a couple of times. Gotta go with XTrooper. I lived through the transition. If I have to go where the fire is hot, and the target isn't a big fuzzy, I will go with the auto.
But, the days of being a motorcop, with nothing more than a 1200 eletra glide, and my Python, with 18 rounds total, and a butt load of confidence sure brings back fond memories.

 

[Knightrider03m]

That's great if they let you. Most (at least around here) wont let you anymore.

+1

I did everything including begging my boss to let me carry my 66 but he said .40 or nothing

 

[XTrooper]

It would appear enough of "us" are when you consistently see headlines like OFFICERS FIRE 98 ROUNDS, GUNMAN SUFFERS 3 MINOR INJURIES.

What I am saying is do not let the plethora of ammo in your pistol and on your belt lull you into a false sense of invulnerability.

I totally agree. Lots of ammo doesn't equal invulnerability.

My point was that headlines like the one you describe are indicative of a training problem and not one of weapon type.

 

[XTrooper]

What he is trying to say is that from 1940's to the 1980s while law enforcement was using revolvers the average officer shot 2 rounds during a fire fight to take out the bad guy..As semi autos were introduced into the law enforcement scene the national average creeped up. Now the average officer will shoot 5 to 7.

I don't have any stats to back this up, but I strongly suspect that the number of rounds being fired in the direction of officers has also climbed significantly. This would naturally have an effect on the return fire count.

 

[Palmetto Sharpshooter]

Wow! I didn't mean to start a debate. I just wanted to "show off" my guns and what my tired old eyes can still do, just a little.

I'm not an expert here for sure. But in fact, I think when it comes to actual gunfighting there are none; because only a fool would seek to do that and eventually your number will come up. I've only been in one and only fired two shots with a high-cap semi-auto. I was 50% there and was not the only one firing. I really don't want to say more than that because I don't like to talk about it for several reasons that I will not discuss.

As for guns, whatever your competent and comfortable with is fine by me. I've seen folks killed with all kinds of stuff from .12 gauges at point blank to a sponge mop (literally). I'm not as hung up on "this is the perfect weapon." While it certainly wouldn't be my choice, we had a local barber that took down two bad guys with a High Standard .22 Magnum derringer once.

After qualifications, our firearms instructor and I (BTW: I'm an instructor too) discussed revolvers versus semi-autos. Both of us came up in the old school of S&W M-10s and a Chief or Detective Special backup or nothing. We agree that police marksmanship appeared to be much better back then. We didn't have 45 rounds to miss with. You only had 18 plus your 5 or 6 shot back up. We did okay I think. Personally I think the streets were meaner back then too. I know for certain the homicide rate was much higher.

Sorry to cause controversy. I have a way of doing that...unfortunately. And yes, I do switch guns occasionally. You're just as likely to see me carrying a 4563, 4006 or 5906. My last time to discharge my weapon on duty was with a Glock 19 to dispatch a pit bull. I compete with the 686 and carry it for ceremonial purposes mostly. I will be carrying it today at work and will be confident with it.

 

[grizzley]

hello everyone new here i do have question for palmetto sharpshooter were did you get the grips on you 36.

 

[18DAI]

Nice shooting Palmetto Sharpshooter. NC changed a statute last December which enabled DA Investigators to carry anything they qualified with including revolvers and 1911's. Since 2008 revolvers had been prohibited. 1911's had been prohibited since 1995.

I added a 4 inch 66-2 and a 2.5 inch 66 to my S&W 3rd gen 45's and my 3913.

Next qualification is in May. I'm going to reduce the number of guns, but will keep a 2.5 inch 66-2 and a 640-1 BUG on my card.

Hard to beat the speed, power and accuracy of a good sixgun. Regards 18DAI

 

[M3Stuart]

Nice shooting!

 

[mag318]

Here in Illinois our HR-218 qualification gives you the choice of qualifying with a revolver, a semiauto or both. Most shoot both afterwhich you can carry any revolver or semiauto you desire. Five fellow retirees bought S&W 632s last year in 327 Magnum, so as a hoot we're all going to use our 632s using 32 S&W ammo. Which is not as loud as a 22 LR and not much more recoil. Every state handles HR-218 qualification differently and in Illinois we pay $75 for one type of handgun and $100 if you shoot both a revolver and semiauto. The state organization that runs this known as IROCC (Illinois Retired Officer Concealed Carry) is funded solely by retirees, so it is money well spent. It's nice to have the option of carrying whatever you want as to type of handgun. For hot weather carry I still prefer a light J frame S&W, when the weather cools I tuck a semiauto into an IWB holster.
I truly appreciate President Bush signing HR-218 into law and President Obama for signing the updated enhanced version. Stay safe out there and retire as early as you can, while we still have defined benefit pensions.

 

[Darkenfast]

Ref the Russian badge: it says "Transportnaya Militsiya" or Transport Police. Must have been an interesting visit! I bet your handguns were a bit more powerful than their Maks (although i think that is a great design).

 

[Palmetto Sharpshooter]

Ref the Russian badge: it says "Transportnaya Militsiya" or Transport Police. Must have been an interesting visit! I bet your handguns were a bit more powerful than their Maks (although i think that is a great design).

They actually brought some Makarovs and Stetchkins with them.

 

[Palmetto Sharpshooter]

hello everyone new here i do have question for palmetto sharpshooter were did you get the grips on you 36.

I bought them at a gun show from a grip maker from Louisiana many years ago. They were one of a kind Sambar stag. I asked him the price and he said, "$100, take it or leave it." I took it. I don't remember the guy's name.

 

[PeterCartwright]

Even civilians (like me) see the "times, they are a change'n". The unofficial "IDPA" gang with whom I shoot think of my alloy framed P series Sigs as "old school". That's O.K. And when some of us play with wheel guns, the younger guys snicker uncontrollably. That's O.K., too. I picked up a department trade-in 64-6 round butt/DAO this week. It's work smoothed and very tight. Time on the range yesterday confirmed what a lot of you dudes already know: it shoots beautifully! There's something about the confidence inspired by a well-behaved firearm. Guess that's why the wheel guns keep proliferating in my safe.

PC

 

[mclark202]

I work for a pretty large department in my state. We can only carry Glocks while on duty(unless grandfathered in older Sigs for some of the old timers). We can qualify with anything .380 or larger for off duty, but it's our same qualification course which makes it near impossible for anyone to qualify with a revolver(unless they are just really good and quick at reloading). Sure some can do it, but I wasn't one of them.

Our department averages 11% hit ratio on bullets fired in a gunfight. 11% hit th target. That sounds VERY low, which it is. But most big agencies are around 25%.

You have to take into consideration the big picture. Most gunfights aren't you sitting behind cover shooting quality aimed shots, most are from your back or running another direction just trying to keep someone from gunning you down.

I haven't been in that situation to comment, but I can imagine how difficult it can be.

 

[ahpd1992]

The tactical operator oriented police officers see a revolver on the same light as a blackpowder rifle. Carry what your comfortable with, and practice, practice, practice...

After 20 years only carrying a Glock in one caliber or another our new chief opened up what we can carry. In order to grandfather the last revolver guy, revolvers are allowed. I promptly got a 627, practiced, put on my hip and never gave a 2nd thought to being "undergunned".

We buy our own guns at our PD, so we have a lot more choice in what we can carry.

 

[jdh]

I did my quals today, I'm legal again.

Full power 10mm made an impression on the range. Sadly, it was not the 1006.

 

[XTrooper]

I did my quals today, I'm legal again.

Full power 10mm made an impression on the range. Sadly, it was not the 1006.

Glad to read that there's another 10mm fan out there!

For my HR218 requirements, I qualified a couple of years in a row with my 1026 when I was carrying it regularly using the factory Winchester 175gr Silvertip load. The 1026 made qualifying a breeze.

 

[jdh]

Since the state form does not mention the type of gun used I may do the R8 next year. Have to check and make sure first.