Another canted barrel

[Cal44]

I know some of us here think this issue is overblown, but I hit it again.

A LGS had a 686 SSR in stock -- a gun I've been interested in.

I went in to see it.

The barrel is canted -- by that I mean screwed on a small amount past-dead-center.

But even worse, the barrel clearly pointed off to the left relative to the sight bar.

Very noticeable.

It might shoot OK, but this turned me off.

Trigger was good, however.

They also had just gotten an M&P R8 revolver. It was kind of wicked looking in black with both rails in place. 8 shots of course.

It had a significantly better trigger than the 686 SSR.

Awful expensive -- at this point I can see paying over $1200 for a 357 magnum.

I'm considering an M&P 22 as my next handgun purchase. I think that would be a fun gun to shoot. They are $399 at this store and that's pretty cheap compared to the revolvers.

A couple other interesting guns they had in stock.

A Ruger Gp100 4" in blue. Surprisingly it had quite a good trigger at least as far as I can determine by just dry firing.

Also a S&W M36 classic in blue. A nice gun, but they wanted over $700 and it had the lock. Plus I already have my snubbie addition adequately satisfied (for now).

And comment or experience with the M&P 22?

Is it a reasonable gun for 22 Steel Challenge for a beginner? I'm considering trying that and need some kind of 22 to start with.

Dave

 

[jonesy814]

I paid $309.99 for my M&P22 last year on good Friday. They threw in an extra magazine top. An area shop is currently advertising them at $354.99, and they too are including a free magazine.

 

[qrachel]

Canted - Great for Red Wines

I know some of us here think this issue is overblown, but I hit it again.

A LGS had a 686 SSR in stock -- a gun I've been interested in.

I went in to see it.

The barrel is canted -- by that I mean screwed on a small amount past-dead-center. . . .

. . . and need some kind of 22 to start with.

Dave

Hi Cal:

I'm sure you are a nice guy and all, but I hope we never meet - especially in a gun store. Sounds like I'd soon fall into a compulsive fit and buy something outrageous. Wait, ahhh - that happens anyway.

Well, fate is fickle and she does have a demented sense of humor. And that's all there is to that. (snicker, snicker)

Take care,

R

P.S. The canted barrel thing - I'm just dumbfounded by the problem. I assume it's a tool and/or jig and/or CNC problem. If it's a CNC matter, then really - fix the d___d thing! If it's tooling/jig related, then my guess it's a pure gross margin and total sales thing. The only thing that fixes that is leadership wanting it fixed, or eventually getting tagged as a company with quality issues in a high-end marketplace (think Mercedes and the h___ they eventually went through).

 

[Gunsnwater]

The two part barrels don't have this problem.

 

[k22fan]

I'm one of those who think the significance of a canted barrels is exaggerated, but it bugs you so don't buy that 686.

The M&P 22 is a plinker or perhaps an under study for a center fire M&P auto. The M&P 22 lacks the adjustable sights, weight, barrel length and clean breaking trigger of a target pistol. New shooters occasionally start local matches with M&P 22s. In a month or two they're back shopping for a target pistol.

If I had it to do over again I'd save up and concentrate my gun budget into a model 41 at age 18. I'd have gotten 40 years use out of it and the cost per match would be low. However, that's too much foresight to expect out of an 18 year old. There are a lot of decent target pistols in between the M&P 22 and a 41. Ruger Mark I, II, or IIIs, Buck Marks and old High Standards come to mind. If you can't bring your self to lay out good money for .22, the S&W 22A which Cabelas has put on sale for $199 many times is a much better target pistol than a M&P 22. I'd hunt down one of the discontinued stainless steel framed 22Ss. They're a lot less expensive than adjustable sighted steel frame Ruger .22s but that's not why I prefer them. Ruger's tubular receiver traps firing debris so they have to be cleaned more often, and compared to a 22A or 22S they are a PIA to field strip and reassemble.

 

[echo1xg36c]

I don't think I would be too happy with a canted barrel. Just seems wrong to have something crooked on such a nice piece

 

[S&W45Colt]

S&W tolerance is 2 degrees either way.

I've never seen a canted barrel on a S&W, but that does not mean it doesn't happen. I know the subject has too as many posts on here about it for it to be a myth.

One thing that's been said on here I think it the key, if you're not sure, never buy a gun. You always regret it, or at least I know I would.

 

[Cal44]

S&W tolerance is 2 degrees either way.

I've never seen a canted barrel on a S&W, but that does not mean it doesn't happen. I know the subject has too as many posts on here about it for it to be a myth.

One thing that's been said on here I think it the key, if you're not sure, never buy a gun. You always regret it, or at least I know I would.

I bought an 3" M60 a while back and didn't notice it had a canted barrel. Probably more the 2 degrees.

I sent it back to S&W and it came back adjusted right on center.

Took only about three weeks.

This SSR had less clocking, but the barrel groves on top were not straight with the groves on the front sight bar. Not sure if the barrel was "bent" to the left, or the sight to the right -- but I left the gun in the display case anyway.

I looked at several more guns as I posted, and they were all OK.

 

[S&W45Colt]

I bought an 3" M60 a while back and didn't notice it had a canted barrel. Probably more the 2 degrees.

I sent it back to S&W and it came back adjusted right on center.

Took only about three weeks.

This SSR had less clocking, but the barrel groves on top were not straight with the groves on the front sight bar. Not sure if the barrel was "bent" to the left, or the sight to the right -- but I left the gun in the display case anyway.

I looked at several more guns as I posted, and they were all OK.

Sounds to me like you made a good choice in walking away on this one. I know it bummed you out, but you did the right ting walking on.

 

[rwsmith]

I don't think....

I don't think that not wanting a canted barrel is being picky at all. I don't buy a car if the hood is on crooked. From what I've seen on this forum it sounds like S&W should pay the same attention to barrels on the 686 as they do their triggers.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

You don't know what you think you know

From what I've seen on this forum it sounds like S&W should pay the same attention to barrels on the 686 as they do their triggers.

Speaking of triggers, I was at a LGS looking at a new 629 I was interested in buying but it had a very untypical S&W trigger feel. I asked if they had another in-stock & he said "No, what's wrong with that one." When I told him he said if they had another it would feel the same, all large frame S&Ws feel that way. I told him it was okay for a Ruger, but not a S&W. Don't you just love it when sales people try to tell you you don't know what you know? (This is the same store that said they couldn't sell their primers by the 100/pk anymore because they're in short supply & that they could only sell them by the 1000/bx....sure.)

 

[jaymoore]

...P.S. The canted barrel thing - I'm just dumbfounded by the problem. I assume it's a tool and/or jig and/or CNC problem. If it's a CNC matter, then really - fix the d___d thing! If it's tooling/jig related, then my guess it's a pure gross margin and total sales thing. The only thing that fixes that is leadership wanting it fixed, or eventually getting tagged as a company with quality issues in a high-end marketplace (think Mercedes and the h___ they eventually went through).

It's a calibrated eyeball issue. As a fellow who deals with machine tools, jigs and fixtures every day, I still don't know of an easy solution on the one piece barrel variants.

Smith hasn't sorted it since WWII, and won't until it costs too much. Likely by quitting the manfacture of the old style revolver altogether.

BTW, one accepted method of adjusting windage for many revolvers (mostly Colt) in such tomes as Gunsmithing by Dunlap and Pistolsmithing by Nonte was to turn the barrel in one direction or the other in order to place the front sight in the right spot! I can only imagine the amount of trial and error involved. Have had a few Pre-WWII S&Ws shoot to one side or the other, but how they managed to align those ribless, small sighted barrels so well might be worthy of some investigation.

 

[brucev]

Re: Canted barrels. If this is as prevelant as various posts indicate, then it is a real business opportunity. After all, how hard would it be for a gunsmith to set up and correct problem revolvers? Rebarreling a M-1 Garand is not so hard. Why would it be difficult for a similarly experienced gunsmith to correct a improperly installed barrel?

 

[jaymoore]

Re: Canted barrels. If this is as prevelant as various posts indicate, then it is a real business opportunity. After all, how hard would it be for a gunsmith to set up and correct problem revolvers? Rebarreling a M-1 Garand is not so hard. Why would it be difficult for a similarly experienced gunsmith to correct a improperly installed barrel?

It's not technically difficult, unless it is. Does the customer want the "rear sight centered" version of "straight up"? Or or is it a case of matching the frame contours? Or the rear sight cut? I have revolvers that can satisfy one one of those three options!

Then there's the possibilty of something going wrong when trying to adjust the barrel. Several dramas come to mind. At least one of which is not really a clocking problem but something else entirely. Will start a new thread directly on that scariness. It's quit pouring down rain, so off to the range for a while.

 

[DDDWho]

The canted barrel problem has been going on for 26 years that I can personally attest to. My 1986 model 686 has a canted barrel as does a 2012 model I saw at Bass Pro.

Mine is ever so slight, maybe a 64th or less but correctable by moving the rear sight over. The one at BP was way worse. My only displeasure is "it aint right". Why they seem to unable to correct the problem is a mystery... maybe they just don't care.

It remains one hell of a good gun however.

 

[Nakanokalronin]

I don't think a canted barrel is something to let slide and live with. It will cause misalignment in the sight picture like it did on my 642 which threw off shots if I tried to compensate. I've experienced and seen enough now to know why some refuse to buy anything but older Smith revolvers.

To the poster above me...26 years, really? I think S&W might need some new management, better employees or a proper QC department.

I work at a manufacturing plant that is worldwide and if I find something wrong, I tell QC and any management about the issue. They come out to inspect the machines, tooling, material and everything else. With-in a week or two, the problem is corrected. In my experience, on-going QC issues are the result of nobody caring as long as the profits keep rolling in.

 

[Cal44]

I don't think a canted barrel is something to let slide and live with.

...

In my experience, on-going QC issues are the result of nobody caring as long as the profits keep rolling in.

You indirectly expressed another of my views.

We as the purchasers of the product have a role to play also.

If we accept poor quality, then that is what we will get.

But if we send the product back and get it fixed under warranty, eventually someone will realize warranty costs could be reduced by better QC at time of manufacture.

Dave

 

[Badquaker]

Warranty work is a secondary cost of business. Stop buying guns with obvious defects, and they will pay attention quickly.

 

[k22fan]

I bought my first S&W with a canted barrel in 1975. I adjusted its sight to compensate and it was a great revolver. Ever since barrel cant has been one of the things on my check list buying revolvers, but a little cant isn't a deal breaker. I'm very glad I didn't pass by a used 617 no-dash over an obviously canted barrel. I attained my highest indoor .22 bullseye average with that 617.

There was no golden period of craftsmanship free of canted S&W barrels. The slot milled across the barrel threads for the old barrel pins was generous enough for the pins to freely pass through with a canted barrel. The forum administrator who collects and deals in old S&Ws has posted that a little cant has been within S&Ws accepted manufacturing process since they've been in business.

The S&W canted barrel "problem" is two fold, caused by the combination of post WWII barrel ribs and the internet. Barrel cant that went unnoticed with round barrels and makes no difference in revolver performance is easily spotted by misalignment of the barrel rib and rear sight serrations. It took collectors who spend more time examining their revolvers than shooting them broadcasting every perceived flaw over the internet to create the "problem".

Carry up or timing, lack of end shake, lack of cylinder rotational play at lock up, B/C gap, trigger pull and cylinder throat diameters all are more important than a little barrel cant in a S&W revolver.

 

[Nakanokalronin]

Carry up or timing, lack of end shake, lack of cylinder rotational play at lock up, B/C gap, trigger pull and cylinder throat diameters all are more important than a little barrel cant in a S&W revolver.

This is true, plus lower quality materials and cutting corners which is rampant in many brands now a days. MIM, cast, less fitment required like my recent 500 yolk pin that just fell out after breaking, etc. Lower quality material causes problems.

My company switched to lower cost, lower quality materials and it was nothing but problems making the products and when tested, many failed. This went on for awhile and I kept bringing it up over and over and they finally switched back to where we got material before and guess what, all of the problems went away. I know some canted barrels aren't bad, but I've seen some that are just ludicrous.

Many companies have QC issues, but I'd think such a long lasting American company like S&W would make sure that their reputation stays strong. If I didn't have a job like I do, I'd probably just say whatever and never give it a second thought, but I think they could improve some quite easily with the right push inside the company.

Taurus has the worst QC I've seen. Their cylinders have gradual play at every notch from kinda tight to loose as a goose. I've yet to handle a NIB Taurus revolver that wasn't like this. Used S&W and Ruger revolvers with thousands of rounds through them seem to keep they're tightness or at the very least, be perfectly even throughout the entire rotation.

 

[etexas]

This occurs not just on recent models. I have a 686, no M, dated 1984, which is probably 1.5 degrees and a 63, dated 1988, which is probably 3.5. The 686 is not noticeable, but the 63 is, which has the rear site way to one side. I don't expect precision from all my gun manufactures, but I do from S&W. I take that back. Yes, I do. We spend fortunes on sights, triggers, polishing, balancing, grips, bullets, etc., just to get that little bit more accuracy. Why would I just want to accept something less, even if it is cosmetic. When we are reloading, do we say, yep, that looks close enough! Should I send the 63 back? Yes, I should, but sometime the risk is not worth the reward.

 

[jaymoore]

...Taurus has the worst QC I've seen. They're cylinders have gradual play at every notch from kinda tight to looase as a goose. I've yet to handle a NIB Taurus revolver that wasn't like this. Used S&W and Ruger revolvers with thousands of rounds through them seem to keep they're tightness or at the very least, be perfectly even throughout the entire rotation.

I have come to think they do it on purpose! As a "for instance":Measured several Millenium Pro .45 ACP barrels (which have nice tight lock up in the gun) and all measured 0.456" groove dia. with lands right at 0.449", IIRC. Might as well be smoothbores. The fullsized 24/7 barrels have good bore dimensions, but terrible lock up. Put a 24/7 barrel in a small "Pro" and it shot fine, but wasn't about to buy a whole pistol just to get a barrel. Sold every Taurus I've ever owned as none have ever been quite right. Revolvers, pistols, etc. Have seen many owned by others with stupid dramas as well. The old PT92 and maybe 99 were about as close to real guns as they've ever done. THAT was probably an accident that they have done well not to repeat.

 

[smithrjd]

They do exist, my new 617 has very slightly canted barrel. Not really easy to see and it shoots fine. It is there however and it bugs me that a $750+ revolver has one. I looked at three others at LGS's in the area and all were the same. Canted to one degree or an other. Still trying to decide if I should send it back to S&W.

 

[shawn mccarver]

I would like to see a picture in order to get a sense of how far off it is. We don't seem to see too many pictures on this topic, and what is open and obvious to some might be less noticeable to others.

I have never seen a canted barrel on an S&W in 40+ years of shooting and 30+ years of being an FFL. I have seen a canted barrel on a Winchester (USRA) 94 Trapper .30-30.

 

[Cal44]

They do exist, my new 617 has very slightly canted barrel. Not really easy to see and it shoots fine. It is there however and it bugs me that a $750+ revolver has one. I looked at three others at LGS's in the area and all were the same. Canted to one degree or an other. Still trying to decide if I should send it back to S&W.

Sending it back is pretty painless.

I called them on the phone and got right through.

They send you a FedEx sticker by snail mail -- took about three days to get here.

I went to the local Kinkos/FedEx and got a free box and a small roll of bubble wrap.

Wrapped the gun, put in a hand written note about what was wrong, checked to make sure the gun's serial number on the paperwork S&W sent me with the FedEx label matched.

And then went to the nearest (3 miles away) major FedEx station and dropped it off.

You need to remember to tell the FedEx person there was a firearm in the package.

End-to-end delay was less than a month.

I asked the S&W guy if I needed to ensure the package, and he said no.

Dave

 

[smithrjd]

On mine it is easiest to see looking at the barrel to frame area. Very apparent the barrel is off center to the left. Looking down the sights (6") you do not really see the front sight tilted. At the barrel to frame junction things are not right.

 

[M3Stuart]

I passed on a 3" 60 pro series today. Brand new. Super nice, no canted barrel. Buuuuuutttt...when you pulled the trigger, the rebound spring didn't work all the time. About every third pull the trigger wouldn't reset. You'd have to pull it forward to get it to 'click' back in place.

 

[jaymoore]

BTW, it's not just S&Ws. Observed that my 1970s Colt Python barrel is not "centered" this morning. Left the camera's cable elsewhere, so no photos for a while. It's quite noticable now that I looked!

 

[Boge]

Who cares if it shoots dead nuts on? Maybe S&W needs a barrel signature like Ruger, but one that says "Shoot Before Whining".


I swear some gun owners are the type that iron their underwear. For a shooter performance is No 1. If I was a piano player in a cathouse I would be more worried about my gun's aesthetics.

 

[rwsmith]

Machining problems with barrels

They are a frinking gun manufacturing company, one of the best there is. If they can't put a straight thread on the end of a barrel and the inside bore of the frame and screw them together straight??? I'm a realist and know of manufacturing production problems. If they wanted to they should be able to fix it pronto rather that let it go on over a couple of decades. It's like me being a great car mechanic but I've always cross threaded spark plugs!