Another canted barrel

[etexas]

This occurs not just on recent models. I have a 686, no M, dated 1984, which is probably 1.5 degrees and a 63, dated 1988, which is probably 3.5. The 686 is not noticeable, but the 63 is, which has the rear site way to one side. I don't expect precision from all my gun manufactures, but I do from S&W. I take that back. Yes, I do. We spend fortunes on sights, triggers, polishing, balancing, grips, bullets, etc., just to get that little bit more accuracy. Why would I just want to accept something less, even if it is cosmetic. When we are reloading, do we say, yep, that looks close enough! Should I send the 63 back? Yes, I should, but sometime the risk is not worth the reward.

 

[jaymoore]

...Taurus has the worst QC I've seen. They're cylinders have gradual play at every notch from kinda tight to looase as a goose. I've yet to handle a NIB Taurus revolver that wasn't like this. Used S&W and Ruger revolvers with thousands of rounds through them seem to keep they're tightness or at the very least, be perfectly even throughout the entire rotation.

I have come to think they do it on purpose! As a "for instance":Measured several Millenium Pro .45 ACP barrels (which have nice tight lock up in the gun) and all measured 0.456" groove dia. with lands right at 0.449", IIRC. Might as well be smoothbores. The fullsized 24/7 barrels have good bore dimensions, but terrible lock up. Put a 24/7 barrel in a small "Pro" and it shot fine, but wasn't about to buy a whole pistol just to get a barrel. Sold every Taurus I've ever owned as none have ever been quite right. Revolvers, pistols, etc. Have seen many owned by others with stupid dramas as well. The old PT92 and maybe 99 were about as close to real guns as they've ever done. THAT was probably an accident that they have done well not to repeat.

 

[smithrjd]

They do exist, my new 617 has very slightly canted barrel. Not really easy to see and it shoots fine. It is there however and it bugs me that a $750+ revolver has one. I looked at three others at LGS's in the area and all were the same. Canted to one degree or an other. Still trying to decide if I should send it back to S&W.

 

[shawn mccarver]

I would like to see a picture in order to get a sense of how far off it is. We don't seem to see too many pictures on this topic, and what is open and obvious to some might be less noticeable to others.

I have never seen a canted barrel on an S&W in 40+ years of shooting and 30+ years of being an FFL. I have seen a canted barrel on a Winchester (USRA) 94 Trapper .30-30.

 

[Cal44]

They do exist, my new 617 has very slightly canted barrel. Not really easy to see and it shoots fine. It is there however and it bugs me that a $750+ revolver has one. I looked at three others at LGS's in the area and all were the same. Canted to one degree or an other. Still trying to decide if I should send it back to S&W.

Sending it back is pretty painless.

I called them on the phone and got right through.

They send you a FedEx sticker by snail mail -- took about three days to get here.

I went to the local Kinkos/FedEx and got a free box and a small roll of bubble wrap.

Wrapped the gun, put in a hand written note about what was wrong, checked to make sure the gun's serial number on the paperwork S&W sent me with the FedEx label matched.

And then went to the nearest (3 miles away) major FedEx station and dropped it off.

You need to remember to tell the FedEx person there was a firearm in the package.

End-to-end delay was less than a month.

I asked the S&W guy if I needed to ensure the package, and he said no.

Dave

 

[smithrjd]

On mine it is easiest to see looking at the barrel to frame area. Very apparent the barrel is off center to the left. Looking down the sights (6") you do not really see the front sight tilted. At the barrel to frame junction things are not right.

 

[M3Stuart]

I passed on a 3" 60 pro series today. Brand new. Super nice, no canted barrel. Buuuuuutttt...when you pulled the trigger, the rebound spring didn't work all the time. About every third pull the trigger wouldn't reset. You'd have to pull it forward to get it to 'click' back in place.

 

[jaymoore]

BTW, it's not just S&Ws. Observed that my 1970s Colt Python barrel is not "centered" this morning. Left the camera's cable elsewhere, so no photos for a while. It's quite noticable now that I looked!

 

[Boge]

Who cares if it shoots dead nuts on? Maybe S&W needs a barrel signature like Ruger, but one that says "Shoot Before Whining".


I swear some gun owners are the type that iron their underwear. For a shooter performance is No 1. If I was a piano player in a cathouse I would be more worried about my gun's aesthetics.

 

[rwsmith]

Machining problems with barrels

They are a frinking gun manufacturing company, one of the best there is. If they can't put a straight thread on the end of a barrel and the inside bore of the frame and screw them together straight??? I'm a realist and know of manufacturing production problems. If they wanted to they should be able to fix it pronto rather that let it go on over a couple of decades. It's like me being a great car mechanic but I've always cross threaded spark plugs!

 

[ridgewalker]

LGS had 3 different model 686 in stock, a 4 inch barrel SSR Pro(6-shot), a 5 inch barrel Pro (7-shot), at a standard 4 inch 686(7-shot.) The barrel of the 4 inch SSR Pro appeared straight dead on, the 5 inch Pro was however over-clocked meaning the grooves on the barrel were not in line with the top of the frame. I believe this is what a lot of people on the forum are referring to as canted. Am I right?

Well I tried to imagine the assembly process to explain how the barrel could be out of alignment this way and I believe it is actually very simple. I imagine the frame is held in some vice-like device and an operator places the barrel in another device that is like a drill bit that clamps onto the barrel but spins it so that it screws into the frame. The operator probably pushes a button and the barrel screws into the frame until it is tight. How far the barrel is screwed in depends on the milling of the threads on the barrel and also how the torque is set on the screwing machine. I would think if the barrel is just a tiny bit over threaded, it will be over-clocked when screwed on tight. (Or it could be under-clocked but this presents the same problem so I will just talk about the over-clocked situation.)

Is this a serious problem? I believe so. Imagine a perfect barrel. The front sight will be straight up in the middle for the picture in the rear sight slot. If the barrel is over-clocked the front sight will not naturally fall in the center of the rear sight picture. One can adjust the rear sight but the sight picture will be out (left or right) at different distances other than the distance at which it was zeroed.

Back to the assembly process. After the operator tightens the barrel down he probably releases the frame with the barrel now attached and throws it onto the assembly line for the next process. Eventually it gets boxed up and shipped out to gunstores and then us customers. I think that S&W QC needs to insure that the barrel is adjusted so it is straight on at this point in the assembly. I think an assembly technician could see this in just a few seconds and then slightly loosen or tight the barrel to get it perfect. I believe that the majority of S&W barrels are close enough to perfect but I have seen examples at gun stores that were obviously over (or under) clocked.

I'm not a gunsmith or a gun assembly expert but this is how I envisioned it. Please let me know if I am totally off base but please be kind.

PS. I bought the SSR Pro with the straight barrel and am in the waiting period which my gun unfriendly state requires.

 

[Rickkster]

I think Shawn posted this link before. Around 3:35 of this video is how the factory installs a barrel.

Smith and Wesson Pro Series - YouTube

Cheers,

Rick

 

[BigBill]

I would shoot it first to see if it's accurate to the POA. If it's accurate I'd leave it alone. If it bothers you that much then send it back for repair.

Aren't the screw in barrels hand fitted till they lock in place tight?

I picked up a new unshot s&w m29-10 6 1/2" with all the accessories and the presentation case for $699. The PO purchased it and traded it in. It has a hairline of light under the extractor housing at the bottom. The barrel is perfectly aligned. She's a keeper.

My other three new s&w look perfect barrel alignment wise.

I'm still staying with s&w n frames in nickel of course. But I also want a ruger in 357mag. too in stainless unless I can hold the s&w first to see how it feels(686).

 

[rwsmith]

I think it's the guy.....

I think Shawn posted this link before. Around 3:35 of this video is how the factory installs a barrel.

Smith and Wesson Pro Series - YouTube

Cheers,

Rick

Looks like the problem can be between frame boring and barrel threading to spinning on the barrel. The last guy to make an adjustment to the barrel/frame is the guy with the padded wrench. His superiors probably tell him to send along any gun on that has a messed up barrel, maybe nobody will notice.

Thanks for the video. That turned me on to a good series, "Shooting USA" that I'll be watching more videos from them.

 

[ridgewalker]

I think Shawn posted this link before. Around 3:35 of this video is how the factory installs a barrel.

Smith and Wesson Pro Series - YouTube

Cheers,

Rick

Yes thanks for posting that video. That's pretty much what I thought. The guy with the padded wrench needs to wake up, pay attention, and get it straight.

 

[Nakanokalronin]

Who cares if it shoots dead nuts on? Maybe S&W needs a barrel signature like Ruger, but one that says "Shoot Before Whining".


I swear some gun owners are the type that iron their underwear. For a shooter performance is No 1. If I was a piano player in a cathouse I would be more worried about my gun's aesthetics.

Well, some of those barrels are slightly off and some are "How did this get past QC?"

 

[44 special Dave]

While I have seen "canted" barrels over the last 45 years of looking at S&W revolvers, reading all these various threads would lead one to believe it's an epidemic.

I have three letters that will explain a lot of this: O.C.D.

like the thread were someone went on for pages about there being small concentric "machined" circles on his stainless revolver. Gee I don't know the gun was "machined" at some point I guess.

If canting is obvious, do something about it. If it's an now you see it then you don't or you're not sure........

Dave

 

[k22fan]

The YouTube video of production line installation of a 686 Pro's barrel makes no mention of lathe turning barrel shoulders to fit specific frames. To be generous to S&W we could presume that step was left out to simplify the video. It's also possible S&W can select barrels based solely on measurements. Barrels spin in freely until the barrel shoulder stops against the frame. Imperfect lathe turning of the barrel shoulder is the root cause of canted barrels. S&W uses 36 threads per inch on J, K, L and N frames. One revolution moves the barrel in or out 0.028". Assuming the same barrel installation torque, cutting 0.001" too much off the barrel shoulder will cant the barrel 13 degrees. Barrels shoulders are lathe turned so that the barrel shoulder contacts the frame 36 to 45degrees before the sight is at 12 O'clock. Final torque is varied to get the barrel on straight.

[...] The guy with the padded wrench needs to wake up, pay attention, and get it straight.

If the barrel shoulder was cut only a few thousandths short it won't be on tight enough if he stops when the barrel is straight. In that case the choices are to set the barrel back just short of a revolution, get a different barrel or cant it enough that it will stay on. Put him under time pressure and guess what the easy choice is.

One other thing I noticed in the video is that the barrel is turned in tight with a wrench with parallel jaws grasping the frame across the cylinder window. Members have written that there is risk of bending the frame without a frame wrench that uses inserts that fit the yoke area of specific frames. Any one care to comment on frame wrenches?

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Waste Not, Want Not

Warranty work is a secondary cost of business.

It is assuredly a secondary cost to them but that doesn't justify their inaction to correct a known problem. The unnecessary return process costs has to reduce their profits & forces them to cut cost/quality elsewhere. Look no farther than the white outline on your premium revolver's rear sight. In the "old days" these sights had a groove around the notch & a HEAVY layer of bright white paint in it, that stood out. Comparing an old one to today's current version is shameful with the faint white paint, that barely stands out & you can almost see thru, on an ungrooved surface. Wasting money one place costs in another, plain & simple.

 

[jaymoore]

...One other thing I noticed in the video is that the barrel is turned in tight with a wrench with parallel jaws grasping the frame across the cylinder window. Members have written that there is risk of bending the frame without a frame wrench that uses inserts that fit the yoke area of specific frames. Any one care to comment on frame wrenches?

I'm thinking that frame warping is a concern mostly with the older models and the aluminum framed revolvers.


Repeat photo seen in an earlier thread.

One thing S&W doesn't have to worry about on the production floor are those old revolvers which may have decades of hardened oil, rust and fouling locking the barrel and frame together quite effectively.

Having to assemble the frame wrench is a lot slower, too!