Another "I" don't get it...

[Jon651]

I deliberately choose to fire my revolver DA because if I am woken up from a deep sleep in the middle of the night I want the deliberately stiffer trigger pull. I do it for my benefit and my benefit alone. Whatever any prosecuting attorney may think if there is a trial never came into the equation.

Whatever other's may feel, I consider firing DA (especially in the situation I describe) is wise gun advice - but I am not qualified to say if it is wise legal advice, especially since I don't have a cadre of armed attorneys protecting my house...

 

[Onomea]

Interesting discussion. FWIW, I recently took a couple of hours of training with a revolver — I wanted a refresher — and the instructor brought up the double action only to prevent being accused of recklessness in an SD shooting. I, too, have heard this many times, with some advocating modifying carry guns to DAO.

I also think, as mentioned above, it's mostly a movie move. I don't think it would occur to most people to cock a revolver to hold someone at gunpoint. What would be the perceived advantage? Speed?

If so, I think most of us would agree that the speed difference between pulling the trigger when a revolver is cocked and when it is not is so negligible as to be meaningless. For a very carefully aimed shot over distance, sure, SA is an advantage for most of us. For quick reaction at short range, not so.

 

[jem102]

Thank you all for the replies!

As I read the majority of the replies, "my" take is, for whatever the reasoning of each individual including LEO's, in a defensive situation, if using a revolver, use double action fire. The demonstrations I have seen from Clint Smith, Massad Ayoob and others all demonstrate firing a revolver double action as well for self defense. There have been several statements that multiple police departments only supplied DAO revolvers to officers or called the DA/SA guns back in and had them converted to DAO. It also appears many of you are aware of this with many being able to site instances where this arose as an issue in court.

So, for the vast majority of incidents, when using a revolver for self defense, the "consensus" is to do so... I.E. Double action firing only... There "may be" situations where a single action shot may be called for where a more "surgical" round placement is required.

I am not sure if the legal aspect of "is there" a difference between a single action 4.5 lb. trigger semi auto safety off and the hammer back on a DA revolver with a 4.5 lb. trigger has been answered. Dependent on situation there may be multiple answers or no answer.
A valid point that surfaces (this seems to hinge on the "safety" mechanisms incorporated into most autos verses a possible stress related negligent discharge during a confrontation or de-cocking of the revolver) is the need to de-cock the revolver verses applying the thumb safety in a high stress situation and that scenario may well arise as in holding someone at gun point. I would think that scenario to be problematic no matter the firearm used but would agree the the cocked revolver even more so under that kind of stress load than the ability to thumb on the safety of a single action auto. The strikers and DO/SA would remain inert until you commit to an action.

As to comparing DA/SA autos to DA revolver shooting I find the frame and trigger geometry more conducive to an easier and straighter first double action pull on the autos than a revolver. Then of course you can shoot the reset in single action. I can run 6 rounds right at 4 seconds with the revolver shooting double action and hold center mass at 20' and down. Jerry Miculek I am not. With my DA/SA H&K or Sig I cut a second + off of that including the first double action pull and delivering 7 rounds. This is also with my trigger finger registered to the frame as I have found the time to move from there to the the trigger to be infinitesimal and how I was taught to handle firearms.
Not sure the above is totally relevant to the topic but it was introduced into the posts so I commented.


In conclusion I will agree that double action firing when using a revolver verses a possible stress related negligent single action discharge during a confrontation or de-cocking of the revolver may well save a life and give a better result in legal proceedings that are sure to follow.


A lot of information presented here and with well organized thoughts. Much to consider...


Thank you all again for everyone's input.

 

[BC38]

Yeah, IMO cocking a DA/SA revolver in a SD situation is just asking for trouble. The only advantage of SA is accuracy at longer distances and SD situations shouldn't be happening at those kinds of distances.
For even the most zealous prosecutor to prove a righteous shoot was SA vs DA seems an iffy proposition at best, but why put yourself in that kind of situation? PRACTICE YOUR DA SHOOTING if you're going to carry a revolver for SD.
Seems like the OP's question might be based on an urban LEGEND to me. But that's just my opinion and as always, YMMV.

 

[CALREB]

There are reason (mostly political) or due to some stupid example where an officers misact caused this phenomenon spread and become standard practice on BIG city police departments. I worked for a smaller dept at the beginning of my career and we had no such rule. I do think that for most self-defense application D/A is all that is needed and what the majority of practice should be. I shot PPC for many years D/A only even at 50 yards. D/A can be very accurate but it takes a lot of practice.

Interesting fact about department policy change. Usually the results of a given act can determine whether the change is good or bad.
Case in point. Many years ago an LAPD Sgt (ex SWAT so used to a 1911) thumbcocks his 4506 in a hostage grab type situation and drops the suspect. I don't remember if this was specifically out of policy. I can tell you that it was not a technique taught at the Academy, 9mm school or 45 transition school. Therefore if the shooting had gone badly, it would have been some sort of out of policy, non dept approved technique finding in the shooting review.

However since it went well, the Dept ruled it ok. From then on thumbcocking your semiauto was an approved procedure IF---IF there was a need to make an accurate shot. ???? Most of us thought, when is there not a need to make an accurate shot. It was a good thing but even then all revolvers remained D/A only. Upper echelon thinking at its best.

 

[steelslaver]

IF charges are filed and the case ends up in court, the prosecuting attorney is going to toss up every single bit of "mud" he can think of, he does not have to prove every bit of mud. The more he throws, the more apt some of it is to stick on the walls in the jury room. Your lawyers job is to establish that the mud is just wishful thinking on the persecutor's behalf. If the shot was fired single action or double action and the why behind that is simply "mud". Even if it was somehow shown that the shot was fired single action, the reasoning behind the intent and it effect on the end result are all just "mud".

Did you fire double or single action? Lawyer. Just what happened? Lawyer. My chest hurts. I need to see a Dr.

When my lawyer ask me I can't remember, I feared for my life because of the other guys actions and all I could do was try to stop him from killing me or mine. From that point on it all happened so fast. There is absolutely no law that says you must remember a high stress situation with 100% clarity. Best let a good attorney explain away the prosecutors arguments (mud) and just what happened and YOU keep your mouth shut.

 

[Matt_X]

Re: Reckless actions or negligence resulting in severe injury or loss of life.

This stuff doesn't often make the news. If its covered at all its often a little newspiece about an injury or death but the details aren't known, or not publicly known, at the point. Once in a while its a bigger story. For example last year a movie producer/actor cocked a single action pistol and killed someone and severly injured another. He has publicly admitted cocking the pistol but does not recall firing it.

We don't know the details of the prosecutor's decision making process in that case. However on the face of it, it appears to be an accident due to reckless actions of the operator. So here we have very public example where cocking the firearm contributed to a terrible accident.

I personally view it (cocking the hammer) as the final reckless action in a string of careless or arrogant decisions.

Anyway, my point is here is to offer a very public example.

 

[mdf9183]

In my 30 years as a LEO I don't think I ever saw an officer cock his revolver except at the firing range. Also most lawyers probably wouldn't know the difference between single and double action anyways, unless they were told.

 

[Echo40]

It's just another one of the many silly, uncited, what-if scenarios that folks constantly say online yet none of them can actually find any proof of ever actually occurring.

I've stated on multiple occasions my belief that firearms forums have long since been infiltrated by anti-gunners who do nothing but make discouraging, demoralizing, fear-mongering comments in regards to self-defense with firearms, as evidenced by the fact that the vast majority of actual informative threads in regards to self-defense, including reports of successful self-defense cases in which the civilian triumphed without legal action being taken against them, not to mention threads reporting victories against Gun Control Legislation are consistently one-starred.

So I'd lust as soon write it off as anti-gun rhetoric by unclever anti-gunners who think that if they post nonsense like this all day long then eventually we'll all just give up and stop resisting anti-2A legislation.

 

[Matt_X]

Example where cocking revolver contributed to the decisions of the jury and appellate court, both the majority and the dissenting opinions.
The People of the State of New York, Respondent, v. Frank Magliato, Appellant
Appellate Division of the Supreme Court of the State of New York, First Department. October 10, 1985
PEOPLE v. MAGLIATO | 110 A.D.2d 266 (1985) | ad2d2661333 | Leagle.com


Civil case where the decision to cock a shotgun before determining a threat actually existed was a key point in the case. Again worth reading both opinions in the appeal.
Bill EDWARDS v. Louise G. JOHNSON.
Supreme Court of North Carolina.
January 20, 1967.
Edwards v. Johnson :: 1967 :: North Carolina Supreme Court Decisions :: North Carolina Case Law :: North Carolina Law :: US Law :: Justia

 

[steelslaver]

PS. A lot of the "it will present a problem if used in a self defense shoot'' stuff is pointless.

By the way most LEOs (and other witnesses) that testify in a trial are only allowed in the court room when they are actually giving testimony.

If you use hand loads. The prosecution can question your use of any ammo, The "deadly" Black Talons. Hollow points that are so deadly they are banned in some locations. " Military type" Full Metal Jackets designed to penetrate deeper. "Deadly" "Super High Velocity" +P. They WILL point to your choice as being picked because of some "deadly" characteristic. No way are going to say you thankfully used factory ammo. LOL

Deadly high capacity semi auto firing the deadly military 9mm or 45acp or the FBIs 10mm etc etc

A revolver firing the powerful 38special, 357, 41 magnum because of their history of being reliable effective police weapons often firing more powerful ammo then semi autos. A J frame because you could more easily conceal it from the "victim" a K frame because it held more, a N frame the same size as "Dirty Harry's Deadly 44 magnum" etc etc.

Single action because you wanted to be sure of a "KILL SHOT"
Double action because you could fire faster
You practiced double action to be able to do so
You spend time at the range to make yourself "DEADLY"

News flash anything can be twisted to be shown in a harsh light

If you carry a gun and end up using it you best be in the right and hopefully in the right jurisdiction. If not EVERYTHING can be brought into play AGAINST YOU.

I once watched a county attorney use photos of a room with a hole in the wall again during closing arguments that a deputy sheriff from another jurisdiction had earlier testified was NOT even next to the room the defendant was supposed to be using to spying on someones sexual activity. He was desperately throwing mud as he tried to convince the jury of his theory of the crimes. He failed miserably.

Everything is a bargaining point and if it goes to a jury available for the theatrics. Go watch some real criminal trials and not just ones where a jury is the defendant's only hope. It can be way better than TV.

 

[tmd17]

I think you rack the slide and eject a round to show them you really mean business....

Rack the slide to sort of get their attention, THEN COCK IT to REALLY get their attention.

 

[Onomea]

In Matt X's post 53, first link court case describes a fatal shooting where a guy shoots another guy in the forehead with a single shot from 45 feet after assuming a shooting stance and cocking his Detective Special so as to render it single action. Also turns out that is the way the guy typically shot the gun at the range. Further, the shooter said that he fired accidentally, SA requiring little trigger pressure, when he was startled/brushed back by a car.

So, I guess it does happen. Maybe the guy watched a lot of movies?

Ironically, the jury decided that the shooter was NOT guilty of intentional homicide because it believed that he did not intend to pull the trigger...

 

[Rustyt1953]

Rack the slide to sort of get their attention, THEN COCK IT to REALLY get their attention.

You don't even need a gun anymore. Just download a cellphone app of an 870 racking.

 

[ladder13]

My neighborhood, my train, the # 6 train, made famous in the movie The taking of Pelham 123.

Forum member KBM6893 knows more about this incident than I. Maybe he’ll chime in as I recall the incident but don’t remember all the details.

Ptl Marvin Yearwood had a cocked revolver, presumably a Model 10, to the head of Paul Fava which discharged killing him. Two years later the NYPD went to the Model 64 NY-1 DAO.

From the NY TIMES

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...-subway.html&usg=AOvVaw02CLJNMKbbByWHKuQEoOL_

 

[gerhard1]

It's more of a historical problem than a real world application problem.

Around 1980, I think, a police officer supposedly cocked his hammer while holding a suspect at bay. The gun fired and the suspect died. I'm pretty sure it was a revolver. The details are murky in my memory but you can look it up. This incident led to a massive riot in Miami.

The issue of the cocked hammer creating a too light trigger that the LEO was holding while dealing with a suspect caused the concept of shoot double action only to become widespread.

Striker fired guns, single action pistols, etc., don't have this issue so if you present a 1911, for example, pointing it at a suspect or a goblin that threatens you or yours, there is no argument that the gun has to be cocked. Striker fired pistols are the same for every shot so, again, no argument.

But there are sooooo many handguns that are traditional double action and almost all of them have very light triggers after the hammer is cocked and therein lies the issue.

This Model 65 has been altered to DAO due to the incident that you allude to. It was described by Ayoob on a magazine article if memory serves.

It is one of the smoothest actions I have ever seen.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

The constant admonition is;
... I really don't see the difference between a single action semi auto with the safety off or a double action revolver with the hammer back.

I am sure I am missing something here and not seeing the facts correctly but "I" don't understand...

You need to take "Professional Training".

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

I Just Killed My Dad on Netflix

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2Oual5EjcU"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2Oual5EjcU[/ame]

Anthony Templet shot his father and never denied it. He used two DA revolvers that he cocked Single Action. When the Police arrived to the Crime Scene they recovered both revolvers and they were both still cocked.

Anthony was taught how to shoot revolvers by his father.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

With a double action revolver, would forensics be able to determine if you fired it single action as opposed to double action, unless you told them?

Yes, Forensics will know.

 

[sctman800]

I carry both SA guns and revolvers depending on mood and what I am wearing. I also have been shooting IDPA for close to 20 years about 95% with a revolver. I shoot double action always, well the last time I shot a revolver single action in IDPA was about five years ago. It was a stage with targets at about 40 yards and I shot terrible. Next time I had shots at that distance I shot my normal DA and did much better.
Probably around 15 years ago I sat on a jury on a non-fatal shooting. it was basically a scumbag shooting another scumbag. The important thing I must share from this is I was the only person on the jury that had any actual knowledge of how a firearm works. If you had a jury that no one had any firearm knowledge they will likely believe what they are fed by the states attorney. Jim.