Another "I" don't get it...

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jem102

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The constant admonition is;
"ALWAYS, fire your revolver double action for self defense or the DA will conduct your public execution right there in the court room!"
"Because, after all, you know, you really were not in grave fear of bodily harm or death and it was that "hair trigger" that you created when you cocked the revolver causing a negligent discharge and killing that poor soul that kicked in your door at 3:00 A.M. I know that is a little over the top, but not by much.
I really don't see the difference between a single action semi auto with the safety off or a double action revolver with the hammer back.


IE:
I draw my 1911 and push the thumb safety down and place my finger on the trigger. 4.5 lbs. of finger pressure latter it goes bang and chambers another round. I allow my finger to move 1/16" forward, the trigger resets and 4.5 lbs. latter I get the next bang.


I draw my revolver and pull the hammer back and place my finger on the trigger. 4.5 lbs., most likely 5-6 lbs., of finger pressure later it goes bang. I allow my finger to move 1/4"+ forward, the trigger resets. I now have to pull through double action 8-10 lbs. for the next bang or cock the hammer again for another single action bang at 4.5 lbs...
Both of the above actions will take longer to complete including sight recovery than the 1911 in my opinion.


I am sure I am missing something here and not seeing the facts correctly but "I" don't understand...
 
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It's more of a historical problem than a real world application problem.

Around 1980, I think, a police officer supposedly cocked his hammer while holding a suspect at bay. The gun fired and the suspect died. I'm pretty sure it was a revolver. The details are murky in my memory but you can look it up. This incident led to a massive riot in Miami.

The issue of the cocked hammer creating a too light trigger that the LEO was holding while dealing with a suspect caused the concept of shoot double action only to become widespread.

Striker fired guns, single action pistols, etc., don't have this issue so if you present a 1911, for example, pointing it at a suspect or a goblin that threatens you or yours, there is no argument that the gun has to be cocked. Striker fired pistols are the same for every shot so, again, no argument.

But there are sooooo many handguns that are traditional double action and almost all of them have very light triggers after the hammer is cocked and therein lies the issue.
 
I think that in a high stress situation with the adrenalin pumping the long heavy DA pull of a revolver gives you a little bit more of a safety factor against an AD. Also if you cock the gun and don't fire you have to let the hammer down which is fine at the range but when your amped up this is another story.

As much as I like 1911's I only carry revolvers for that reason.
 
Well why not.... DA is not that hard to master.
Also why I carry a DA/SA auto.

Gave up single action autos as carry guns in about 1988 when I got a Beretta 92 Compact and a Sig 220 in .45acp.

That long 1/2 inch 7-9lb trigger pull is my final "safety".

Why I don't like striker fired guns...

That said, to each their own!!!
 
Lawyers will argue anything whether it’s pertinent or not. When you’re being judged by people not crafty to avoid jury duty anything is possible. I’m not implying their aren’t upstanding citizens eager to do their civic duty out there. It’s a roll of the dice.
 
Allow me to back up to post #1. First off, THAT IS NOT ANY ADMONITION! OK, you qualified it, but your premise is waaaay off base.

Moving on to Post #5. The Miami incident DID NOT involve a cocked revolver. That was a claim made by the prosecution that was refuted at trial. That's been covered here before. However, ISCS Yoda is correct that the SA revolver trigger is generally viewed as a "hair trigger" or one more likely to be operated accidentally/negligently.

Now the nub of the issue. There's no way to forensically prove if the revolver was fired DA or SA, so a prosecutor and/or civil attorney is free to present the theory that you cocked the hammer, negligently fired it and are claiming self defense to avoid jail/liability or both. You have to refute the claim. As a result, and also due to actual cases where cocked revolvers accidentally/negligently/unintentionally discharged, a great many LE agencies went to DAO revolvers and in some cases semi-autos.

In the vast, vast majority of self defense shootings-including LE involvement-DA was quite sufficient to resolve the issue. A skilled DA revolver shooter at realistic distances has no real world significant time difference in time between rounds than a semi-auto armed shooter. Therefore, the SA capability in a defensive firearm is more a liability than it is a help. I spent over 25 years as a certified LE firearms instructor. I got progressively less enthusiastic about SA handguns the more experience I got. Possibly military special ops teams excepted.

ETA: you don't need-or for that matter want-a light weight of pull, short travel, short reset trigger to defend yourself and/or others.
 
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I think part of the reason for this is the likelihood of having to hold someone at gunpoint, vs. firing. Most revolvers have a very crisp and light SA trigger pull compared to most service autos, and you can't just thumb on a safety. In a high-stress situation, this can be important. We all talk about bad guys, but I for one, would never want to be in the position of having shot someone I didn't absolutely have to, even if it meant learning to use revolvers DA routinely.

There is also the issue of what chamber is coming up next. If you fire round(s), then thumb-cock and start shooting again, you are skipping a good round. This can set up an awkward situation.

Edit to add: It's when you cock a revolver and then lower the hammer, because you didn't need to shoot. THAT'S when you skip the round. My mistake!

My opinion.
 
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jem102 said:
The constant admonition is;
"ALWAYS, fire your revolver double action for self defense or the DA will conduct your public execution right there in the court room!"
"Because, after all, you know, you really were not in grave fear of bodily harm or death and it was that "hair trigger" that you created when you cocked the revolver causing a negligent discharge and killing that poor soul that kicked in your door at 3:00 A.M. I know that is a little over the top, but not by much.
I really don't see the difference between a single action semi auto with the safety off or a double action revolver with the hammer back.


IE:
I draw my 1911 and push the thumb safety down and place my finger on the trigger. 4.5 lbs. of finger pressure latter it goes bang and chambers another round. I allow my finger to move 1/16" forward, the trigger resets and 4.5 lbs. latter I get the next bang.


I draw my revolver and pull the hammer back and place my finger on the trigger. 4.5 lbs., most likely 5-6 lbs., of finger pressure later it goes bang. I allow my finger to move 1/4"+ forward, the trigger resets. I now have to pull through double action 8-10 lbs. for the next bang or cock the hammer again for another single action bang at 4.5 lbs...
Both of the above actions will take longer to complete including sight recovery than the 1911 in my opinion.


I am sure I am missing something here and not seeing the facts correctly but "I" don't understand...
Click to expand...

I think that falls under the same **** as "don't use reloads because they'll use it against you in court".
 
Darkenfast said:
I think part of the reason for this is the likelihood of having to hold someone at gunpoint, vs. firing. Most revolvers have a very crisp and light SA trigger pull compared to most service autos, and you can't just thumb on a safety. In a high-stress situation, this can be important. We all talk about bad guys, but I for one, would never want to be in the position of having shot someone I didn't absolutely have to, even if it meant learning to use revolvers DA routinely.

There is also the issue of what chamber is coming up next. If you fire round(s), then thumb-cock and start shooting again, you are skipping a good round. This can set up an awkward situation.

My opinion.
Click to expand...

It may well be my brain is stuck in neutral, but I don't see how/why----"skipping a good round". For my own enlightenment, I just pulled a SA/DA revolver out, dry fired it DA 3 times, and then cocked the hammer. The next chamber came up. And so-------------?????????????? (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Ralph Tremaine

This skipping a chamber business stuck in my head just a little too long, causing me to remember another skipping a chamber concern.

I bought my first brand new in the box S&W in 1956--- a K-22---Satin Blue---which pretty much makes my teeth hurt. I could have one in Bright Blue, but I'd have to wait 6 MONTHS!! That made my teeth hurt worse! Then, a tiny voice whispered in my ear, and I sent the gun back to the factory, asking them to refinish it---BRIGHT BLUE. I also asked them to have their very best Craftsman go through it, and make it as perfect as can be.

The gun came back in about 2 weeks-"a thing of beauty and a joy forever"; but no mention of anything about making it "as perfect as can be". It took a good while, but I came to notice it didn't have a turn ring. AH HA!! A not too close examination/comparison revealed the cylinder stop timing had been altered, such that the cylinder stop dropped immediately at the first movement of the trigger---and stayed down until just before the lead into the next cylinder stop notch. Years, and about a half a box car full of ammunition later, I noticed a turn ring----about 3/32" long just before the lead into each cylinder stop notch-----a very faint turn ring. Then I royally screwed the pooch by telling the good Dr. Jinks about it! He had a hissy fit of major proportions---"They NEVER should have DONE THAT!! It will skip chambers in rapid double action fire!" I didn't have the heart to tell him about half of that "half a box car full of ammunition" had been expended in as rapid double action fire as I could manage in my efforts to emulate Ed McGivern's feats (never mind I never quite made it)-------and it never skipped a beat!
 
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ISCS Yoda said:
It's more of a historical problem than a real world application problem.

Around 1980, I think, a police officer supposedly cocked his hammer while holding a suspect at bay. The gun fired and the suspect died. I'm pretty sure it was a revolver. The details are murky in my memory but you can look it up. This incident led to a massive riot in Miami.

The issue of the cocked hammer creating a too light trigger that the LEO was holding while dealing with a suspect caused the concept of shoot double action only to become widespread.

Striker fired guns, single action pistols, etc., don't have this issue so if you present a 1911, for example, pointing it at a suspect or a goblin that threatens you or yours, there is no argument that the gun has to be cocked. Striker fired pistols are the same for every shot so, again, no argument.

But there are sooooo many handguns that are traditional double action and almost all of them have very light triggers after the hammer is cocked and therein lies the issue.
Click to expand...
The 1980 Miami riots were due to officers beating to death a man with their flashlights and night.
 
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