DWalt
Member
A Delta plane with 80 aboard crashed in Toronto today. It flipped over on its back on landing. No one killed, but there were a few serious injuries.
Another plane crash
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I'm interested to hear from the pilots here on the forum. How does an airplane of that size turn turtle?
I've heard of small planes going over from unexpected wind, but it must take a lot to flip a larger plane. How high were they when they lost it? That the fuselage is largely intact and there were no fatalities imply they were close to the ground.
I've heard of small planes going over from unexpected wind, but it must take a lot to flip a larger plane. How high were they when they lost it? That the fuselage is largely intact and there were no fatalities imply they were close to the ground.
If enough airflow gets under one wing and not the other, it will flip almost anything.
“Meteorologists say that there was blowing snow in Toronto and visibility was down to 6 miles at the time of the incident, with winds at 20 mph and gusts up to 37 mph. Temperatures were well below freezing, at 17°F.”
The Bombardier CRJ900 LR is a Long Range version of the CRJ900. The extra range is achieved by increasing the ramp and takeoff weights so the CRJ900 can take on more fuel, allowing for greater range. The CRJ900 LR is the longest range CRJ900 available from Bombardier. The maximum takeoff weight for the Bombardier CRJ900 LR is 84,500 lb or 38,330 kg. This is an increase of 4,000 pounds over the base CRJ900 and a 2,000 increase over the CRJ90 ER. Of course it would be somewhat lighter when landing due to fuel consumption.
There are some hairy looking airplane landing in high winds on youtube. I won’t think a 37 mph wind would be strong enough to flip over a heavy body plane. Light planes yes but large commercial jets?
The Bombardier CRJ900 LR is a Long Range version of the CRJ900. The extra range is achieved by increasing the ramp and takeoff weights so the CRJ900 can take on more fuel, allowing for greater range. The CRJ900 LR is the longest range CRJ900 available from Bombardier. The maximum takeoff weight for the Bombardier CRJ900 LR is 84,500 lb or 38,330 kg. This is an increase of 4,000 pounds over the base CRJ900 and a 2,000 increase over the CRJ90 ER. Of course it would be somewhat lighter when landing due to fuel consumption.
There are some hairy looking airplane landing in high winds on youtube. I won’t think a 37 mph wind would be strong enough to flip over a heavy body plane. Light planes yes but large commercial jets?
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Alk8944
US Veteran
If you have the "Smithsonian Channel" available to you on any of the cable or satellite services simply watch the series "Air Disasters" and eventually you will see actual video of transport type aircraft that have "upset" during a crash landing from several causes. It is very possible and, unfortunately, not uncommon for transport aircraft of all types to end up inverted after a crash. The wings are not nearly as strong as most people believe them to be and frequently are torn from the fuselage during a crash. This causes the lift from the remaining wing to roll the fuselage and remainder of the aircraft inverted. There are also episodes where control was lost for some reason, mechanical or otherwise, and the aircraft rolled inverted or nearly so while still airborne, resulting in one wing being torn off while still airborne.
There are probably at least a dozen episodes of "Air Disasters" where the passenger or cargo transport aircraft ended up inverted, usually with a high percentage of occupants ending up dead as a result.
Toronto was a very fortunate exception having no reported fatalities!
I am a licensed pilot, but that is purely incidental.
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Delta passenger records escape from overturned, burning plane at Toronto airport
New video has surfaced showing one passenger’s escape from an overturned plane following a crash at Pearson airport on Monday afternoon.
Peter Koukov was on board flight 4819 from Minneapolis to Toronto and recorded video as he made his way out of the upside-down plane following the crash...
...After exiting the plane, Koukov captured the chaotic scene. In the footage, which was uploaded to social media, stunned passengers can be seen looking on as fire crews doused the flames emanating from the CRJ-900 aircraft...
New video has surfaced showing one passenger’s escape from an overturned plane following a crash at Pearson airport on Monday afternoon.
Peter Koukov was on board flight 4819 from Minneapolis to Toronto and recorded video as he made his way out of the upside-down plane following the crash...
...After exiting the plane, Koukov captured the chaotic scene. In the footage, which was uploaded to social media, stunned passengers can be seen looking on as fire crews doused the flames emanating from the CRJ-900 aircraft...
On one of the Minneapolis “News” stations the statement was made that the aircraft’s wings “came off just like they were designed to do.” The theory being that by detaching from the fuselage, the wings take the fuel away from the fuselage, thereby reducing the chance of fire in a crash.
Yeah…
Yeah…
LVSteve
Member
Yeah, indeed.
Still, the missing wings and tail didn't have people in them, so those parts going AWOL doesn't concern me, even if it isn't part of the design. Looking at the pictures the fuselage is remarkably straight. Seem that Bombardier build a tough airplane.
Funflyer
Member
From the video I saw this morning it appears the plane had a hard landing on the right main gear. The gear looks like it was forced through the wing root which caused the right wing to depart. The roll over was caused by the lift of the left wing. Pilot has some explaining to do.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7UvCPqnfP8[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7UvCPqnfP8[/ame]
LVSteve
Member
What airport does?
Back in 2009, a chartered World Airways DC-10 made a "hard landing" at Baltimore-Washington International Thurgood Marshall Airport (BWI), which injured a number of passengers and totaled the airplane. It was a miracle that nobody was killed.
(That DC-10 remains at BWI to this day. It sits in a storage area next to a runway. After the insurance company finished with it, all usable parts were stripped off, and it's used today by the BWI Fire and Rescue Department for training.)
NTSB releases docket on DC-10 hard landing accident | Aviation Safety Network's News
(That DC-10 remains at BWI to this day. It sits in a storage area next to a runway. After the insurance company finished with it, all usable parts were stripped off, and it's used today by the BWI Fire and Rescue Department for training.)
NTSB releases docket on DC-10 hard landing accident | Aviation Safety Network's News
Alk8944
US Veteran
It does, watch the videos linked in other replies! Most, if not all, major airports video all aircraft operations to assist in crash investigation if necessary.
After looking at the videos of the Toronto crash it is apparent that that was a very hard landing, probably affected by the weather, that appears to have caused failure of the right main landing gear of the aircraft which resulted in loss of the right wing. It is hard to see in the video if the landing gear collapsed, but listing of the aircraft to the right as the wing came off is apparent.
Whether or not Bombardier designed the aircraft to "shed it's wings" in the event of a crash is immaterial, that is what happened. If that is in-fact, a design feature then over-turn of the aircraft as a result of losing a single wing, from either side, is probably an unintended and unexpected consequence.
It looks so far that there are still no fatalities.
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I am a licensed pilot but I only fly single engine small planes so my opinion is worth what it costs anyone. Looks like pilot error to me in the videos. Came in fast to try to deal with limited visibility and gusty winds, landed hard and bounced and got sideways when he hit again. The media continues to report that the plane "flipped" or landed upside down. No it rolled over onto it's back and wasn't as bad as it could have been.
LLWS is one thing investigators will be looking at. Several deadly crashes have been attributed to Low Level Wind Shear/microbursts. Flight Safety International has one particular crash sequence programed in their simulators. Most people crash the first time they fly it, including me. Once you recognize the symptoms and take immediate corrective action the aircraft can be landed safely or do a go around to live another day. In the model at FSI sims the A/C crashed a mile or so short of the runway. I think it was a L-1011 as I recall. The trick is get the throttles full up, FAST.
I have an airline background going back to the 80's and 90's
flying DC-9's. I saw the video taken from another aircraft
holding short of runway 23 when the Delta jet landed. It
looked like the pilot flying didn't initiate a flare before the
wheels hit the deck. It looked like an aircraft carrier landing.
I'm sure the gusty winds didn't help either. Just my $.02.
flying DC-9's. I saw the video taken from another aircraft
holding short of runway 23 when the Delta jet landed. It
looked like the pilot flying didn't initiate a flare before the
wheels hit the deck. It looked like an aircraft carrier landing.
I'm sure the gusty winds didn't help either. Just my $.02.
Talking about strong straight line winds, we had what they called a derechos a couple of years back. I had never heard the term before. The derechos flattened corn fields. It was one of the craziest things I have seen
I could see how that would make a mess out of a plane attempting to land
I could see how that would make a mess out of a plane attempting to land
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What mojave30cal said. No flare, so how fast was that landing, and what was rate of descent? It looked like a crosswind tipped him left side up so the right main gear took all the force of the landing, some of it sideways.
