Akapennypincher
Member
Forward Assist, and Dust Cover. Seems like not much more cost when doing a production run?
Any ideas why Smith & Wesson made the M & P Sport without
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Pennies work out big on production costs, and they are useless on a sporting rifle?
cyphertext
US Veteran
Reduced cost. You cut down on the machining time as well, since you don't have to machine the areas where the pin rides.
Doesn't seem like a large savings on a single firearm, but over a production run, it is a good chunk of change.
Doesn't seem like a large savings on a single firearm, but over a production run, it is a good chunk of change.
DOGBONE1
Member
When I was shopping for an entry level AR and found the Sport, everything I read was if you don't live in extreme dusty areas you won't need the cover and as far as the forward assist they said it just wasn't an extreme need. Anyway, I wanted the Smith and Wesson name and figure if it wasn't needed then I'd go on and proceed.
red dragon
Member
It was smart,eliminate the unnecessary.save costs,pass it on to the consumer.they will sell a ton of these and with good reason.I've never used my FA and don't see a need for a dust cover unless your walking through the dessert with the bolt open.nutnfancy did a great review on YouTube on the sport.not to mention you can get a sport and good optics for the price of most ar's.
Back in my college economy classes I learned that items sell for around 5 times the cost of production. Of course this varies between a bag of potato chips and a new Cadillac, but it would be interesting to learn the real cost to manufacture each. 
Using that simple math, if S&W can save $50 by not machining a bolt and adding a part, the retail could conceivably be reduced by $250.
.
Using that simple math, if S&W can save $50 by not machining a bolt and adding a part, the retail could conceivably be reduced by $250.
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Vinney47
Member
I see both sides here. I wonder why S&W doesn't offer a Sport with the dust cover/FA for a bit more. As in their 15-22; the model with a threaded barrel and a flash hider is $20 more than non-threaded/no flash hider. You don't need a flash hider on a .22lr any more than you *need* a FA/dust cover, but people still often prefer them and would gladly pay a bit more to have them. For those that don't really care about them or want the rock bottom price, leave the base model available for them.
red dragon
Member
They do sell one,its the m&p15.there are 10 different m&p15 models that are gi and 2 piston.not counting color variations or compliant models.there's definitely something for everyone.as follows- moe mid,vtac ll,300 whisper,m&p15,X,TS,OR,T,Sport,PC and PS,PSX.
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cyphertext
US Veteran
If they added the forward assist and ejection port cover, and it cost an additional $50, it would kill sales of the OR and quite possibly, the 15T.
I'm actually surprised that the Sport came with sights. They reduced cost when they changed from the LMT fixed rear sight to the Magpul rear sight, but if the idea was to produce the cheapest rifle possible, they could have left the sights off.
As far as the M&P 15-22, many folks buy the version with the flash hider just because the barrel is threaded. I bought it because it protects the crown of the muzzle.
I'm actually surprised that the Sport came with sights. They reduced cost when they changed from the LMT fixed rear sight to the Magpul rear sight, but if the idea was to produce the cheapest rifle possible, they could have left the sights off.
As far as the M&P 15-22, many folks buy the version with the flash hider just because the barrel is threaded. I bought it because it protects the crown of the muzzle.
JaPes
Member
Don't forget the integral trigger guard or the narrow diameter, heat shield-less handguards. Also the new production Sports do not have the 1:8 5R progressive gain twist, Melonite treated, Thompson Center barrel. Fewer machining operations, fewer manual assembly steps, fewer small parts, and a standard barrel will drop costs over an entire production run, lowering the price for the consumer.
IMO, I like that S&W offers the 15-Sport. It is a well built, factory complete AR, priced within reach for most firearms enthusiasts. It also carries a factory warranty / service policy from a well known, brand name firearms manufacturer. This makes it one of the best "gateway" AR's. For some, the 15-Sport is the beginning of the black rifle disease; leading to higher price point rifles. For others (such as myself) the 15-Sport is their only factory complete AR and it gets modified. A friend of mine is a K.I.S.S. rifle advocate. He hasn't modified anything on his.
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gunny4053
US Veteran
It's all about the math. Even if removing the FA and dust cover only saved them $10, a run of 10,000 rifles just saved them $100,000.
That and as long as I'm here, I might as well beat a dead horse a little too. If you keep your rifle clean, the FA is just decoration, and unless you're doing a lot of low crawling through the dirt and sand, the dust cover serves no purpose. The dust cover is open when you're shooting anyway.
The Sport is a great entry rifle with everything you need and nothing you don't. S&W provides plenty of options for those who need more.
That and as long as I'm here, I might as well beat a dead horse a little too. If you keep your rifle clean, the FA is just decoration, and unless you're doing a lot of low crawling through the dirt and sand, the dust cover serves no purpose. The dust cover is open when you're shooting anyway.
The Sport is a great entry rifle with everything you need and nothing you don't. S&W provides plenty of options for those who need more.
spad124
Member
The original M16s sent to Vietnam did not have FAs. FAs were a revision introduced, with the A1 if I recall correctly, to compensate for a change in propellant that caused higher rates of full auto fire than the gun was designed for. Plus ammo got dirty in the jungle. And the original M16 instructions were that cleaning was not necessary. The FA was added to compensate for over heated dirty chambers shooting dirty ammo. Same thing with chrome lining the barrel. So, unless you are going full auto with really dirty gun you don't need the FA. If a new manufactured round all of a sudden won't chamber in a clean gun, there is something wrong with the ammo, eject it an try the next one.
I can't recall if the dust cover was in the original design or not. But the AR owners who are into retro ARs pay for the original "slicksides" uppers without the FAs and shell defectors.
When I bought my Sport I was very happy to save the $50-$100 and delete the FA and dust cover. If I was deployed to Afghanistan it might be different, but then I would be using my Uncle's rifle- not my own.
I can't recall if the dust cover was in the original design or not. But the AR owners who are into retro ARs pay for the original "slicksides" uppers without the FAs and shell defectors.
When I bought my Sport I was very happy to save the $50-$100 and delete the FA and dust cover. If I was deployed to Afghanistan it might be different, but then I would be using my Uncle's rifle- not my own.
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Or the forward assist was for a perceived need for "soldiers to have something to push on". They weren't on the first shipment to the Air Force, they didn't want them. Gene Stoner didn't like them either.
You can make a case both ways, but personally I'd prefer not to have one. I do like the dust cover though.
You can make a case both ways, but personally I'd prefer not to have one. I do like the dust cover though.
spad124
Member
With the windage adjustable only Magpul rear sight and lack of a forward assist the Sport basically replicates the original M16 design- without selective fire of course.
Kadonny
Member
It's a "Sport" intended for "sporting". Dust cover and FA not needed.
PS: Cost savings a plus.
PS: Cost savings a plus.
Damien
Member
Lot of replies at the beginning of the thread said no FA or Dust cover for cost reasons. If that were the only AR lower they were making it'd be a no brainer (cheaper). But isn't the production cost higher to machine up say 6 or 7% of the lowers one way and the rest another? I would think it cheaper to just run one line, one set of tooling, one finishing proses. But on the other hand, that must not be right or they wouldn't doing it the way they do....... I guess that's why S&W makes guns and I fix alarms LOL
rojodiablo
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They were built with these differences for the reasons all mentioned; especially to the fact that they are a 'Sport' rifle.
In all reality, there is really no equal to the first edition with the fixed rear sight and the 1/8 barrel. The second series used the Magpul rear sight, and the 3rd series has the standard 1/9 barrel. Still, a great value for a 'sporting rifle'.
For those who would feel the dust cover is a necessity, I will humbly remind you that your typical 30-06 model 70 or 700 are missing one and somehow do not suffer from it. The M1 Garand did not have one, and that rifle saw just as much sheer abuse as the M16 has.
If you are thinking about a Sport and worry about the dust cover???? Don't sweat it. My rifle has seen a ton of sand and silt already and it does not really care.
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The standard AR upper is made from blanks forged in expensive dies to create the exterior shape. I don't know this to apply in the case of the M&P, however, many uppers without FA & deflector are made from billets/bar stock that aren't forged. This saves major money.
Even if they are forged rectangular billets, not having to use the dies saves, as does the need not to machine the F/A, , deflector, dust cover section etc.
Could some of you Sport owners check the ejection port side of the rail area for a forge mark and advise? I bought my sons M&P15s and one upper was Anchor Harvey Forge (broken A-kinda looks like A H) and the other.....Cerro (keyhole shape) Forge, IIRC. NOTE: lack of the forge mark only indicates that the upper was not die forged as conventional uppers are. It does NOT mean that the parent metal may not be forged.
BTW, the FA addition didn't have anything to do with propellant issues or excessive cyclic rate. It was solely intended as a way to force the bolt into battery, something the Army insisted on. Most rational folks figure that if the weapon won't feed as designed, you should find and fix the problem, not beat on it. You can go on youtube and watch any number of folks beat their bolts closed only to have the weapon self destruct.
Even if they are forged rectangular billets, not having to use the dies saves, as does the need not to machine the F/A, , deflector, dust cover section etc.
Could some of you Sport owners check the ejection port side of the rail area for a forge mark and advise? I bought my sons M&P15s and one upper was Anchor Harvey Forge (broken A-kinda looks like A H) and the other.....Cerro (keyhole shape) Forge, IIRC. NOTE: lack of the forge mark only indicates that the upper was not die forged as conventional uppers are. It does NOT mean that the parent metal may not be forged.
BTW, the FA addition didn't have anything to do with propellant issues or excessive cyclic rate. It was solely intended as a way to force the bolt into battery, something the Army insisted on. Most rational folks figure that if the weapon won't feed as designed, you should find and fix the problem, not beat on it. You can go on youtube and watch any number of folks beat their bolts closed only to have the weapon self destruct.
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rojodiablo
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The first series of AR15/M16 did have major issues from three different conditions; one was the false expectation of no cleaning being necessary. Another was a change in propellant.
Combine these 2, and there were many, many rifles failing to go into battery- so much that they requested a way to force the rifle into battery. Thus, the FA was added on.
All that effort, and our gunny was always rather emphatic that if you were tapping that FA, you were guilty of not cleaning your rifle, plain and simple.
Plazzman
Member
To give a person that is a little short on cash a chance to own and experience the beauty of a AR without all the bells and whistles. When his pocket book gets bigger then he can make it bigger and better to his liking.
nitewatchman
Member
Some people just like the plain upper. And I can't remember a time when either the FA or Dust Cover really made any difference in what I was doing.
I used a Sport Stripped Upper to build up my .204Ruger Varmint Rifle. Looked for it until I found one.
I like the "slick side" for this type of rifle since it doesn't get used to chase Al-Qaida through the bushes and river bottoms.
Would like to find another to assemble a .22LR Pistol. The lower assembled without a buffer tube has that evil Broom Handle Mauser look to it.
nitewatchman
I used a Sport Stripped Upper to build up my .204Ruger Varmint Rifle. Looked for it until I found one.
I like the "slick side" for this type of rifle since it doesn't get used to chase Al-Qaida through the bushes and river bottoms.
Would like to find another to assemble a .22LR Pistol. The lower assembled without a buffer tube has that evil Broom Handle Mauser look to it.
nitewatchman
I personally think it is for two reasons. 1. Cost, it lowers cost and they can sell them for less and 2. and more importantly, a first time buyer may buy a sport then listen to people on forums tell him he should have spent a few more bucks and for and M&P15 with FA. Smith has now sold two guns instead of just one. I like Smith a lot, but it's purely marketing IMO. All companies do it.
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To get the lowest possible price point. Plain and simple. Truthfully, the prices on AR type rifles are way inflated. That rifle was designed to take advantage of modern production methods, but you would not know it from the prices charged.
easyliving
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yes, over inflated
about 600.00 over inflated in most cases
my m and p 15 w/o FA dust cover ---699.99
others about 1200.00 plus
about 600.00 over inflated in most cases
my m and p 15 w/o FA dust cover ---699.99
others about 1200.00 plus
easyliving
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I heard this, not known if true, (rumor) but the weapon was supposed to be introduced as a entry level AR-15 type weapon for beginners. Also, without the dust cover and FA, it didn't look so imposing as a assault weapon like others. Thus the sporting gun title.
Well, this little entry weapon can do as much damage in the hands of a skilled shooter or one just trained. The bullet no know difference.
By the way, mine hates any thing metal.......will jam. May be the reason I have chips inside the upper receiver caused by the cam pin.
I heard this, not known if true, (rumor) but the weapon was supposed to be introduced as a entry level AR-15 type weapon for beginners. Also, without the dust cover and FA, it didn't look so imposing as a assault weapon like others. Thus the sporting gun title.
Well, this little entry weapon can do as much damage in the hands of a skilled shooter or one just trained. The bullet no know difference.
By the way, mine hates any thing metal.......will jam. May be the reason I have chips inside the upper receiver caused by the cam pin.
Gun Grabbers wouldn't know notice the difference. I'm sure it looks the same to them.
Manufacturers are going to Modern Sporting Rifles so it is a more friendly name than assault weapon.
I wouldn't assume they called it sport because it looks less like an assault weapon.
dannybot
Member
I took the dust cover off of my 3gun AR, it just got in the way. I don't have a dirt problem either, even though I shoot prone in the dry, dust, drought ridden conditions of Texas and frequently have to abandon the rifles on the ground. The forward assist has come in handy on guns that won't cycle properly, but you don'y usually see that on factory rifles.
As has been mentioned, if you save $10-$20 per rifle, it adds up.
As has been mentioned, if you save $10-$20 per rifle, it adds up.
Well put, Mr. Moore. (Of course, if someone is trying to kill you, one might be inclined to try a little beating if all else has failed.
)I do not shoot thousands and thousands of rounds through my ARs in a year, but they do get fired a fair bit. The last time I "tapped" on a forward-assist all I did was make things worse.
I think the answer to the question is two-fold. Sure it saves a little money and gives you a chance to buy S&W ("major" brand) instead of brand-x for the same money. Also can serve to kick you up into more $$$ if you are the type to insist on those features.
I agree with the writer who said that for a sport shooter, the features are basically useless. My Sport runs like a truck and has been very accurate. Must have a good barrel.
