Any Japanese Sword Knowledge Here? Update Added

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Mike1647

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I have found an old, appears to be Japanese sword at a relatives house while cleaning it out. I am trying to find out more about it. It has a wooden outer sheath and the handle is wood also. There are symbols on the tang that I have tried to photograph. A Google search turned up no symbols that look the same. Anyone have such knowledge?
 

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Thanks. I have not cleaned or rubbed anything on the sword. The blade measures 25 3/4" from tip to tsuba? and 26 3/4" from tip to tang. I have attached more photos.
 

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Your sword appears to be missing the hand guard.It looks to be a hand made blade and not a WWII military issue. This makes it a lot more valuable.Does it have any chips or cracks in the blade? If it does you may just have a nifty keepsake and that's about it. The writing under the handle and also the color of the rust there will help date your blade.There are websites dealing with Japanese WWII items that could help you. I would offer some suggestions on where you could find some info but I don't want to get dinged again for promoting "other websites".
 
The blade is in great shape, better than the scabbard and the handle. How can I tell if it had a handguard? There are no nicks or flat spots on the blade at all. A kind forum member sent me in the direction of some expert help and I thank him for that.
 
What I am looking for....

Is a difference in shade of the color about 1/2" above the edge to the metal on top of it. Let me try to make sense here. The edge is a duller shade of grey because of the extra carbon. Often these shaded areas had a bit of a swirly pattern where the maker applied a carbon compound with a brush along the edge to make it extra hard. That would be a sure sign that it was handmade.

The marks are usually letters telling who the maker is. I THINK that they are read vertically. However, I don't recognize the symbols. They look like some Japanese writing that I have seen but not the old 'blocky' style of squares and crosses.

UPDATE: The middle symbol is the only one that is simple enough to make out and I think it is a single letter. The other two are way too complex for me to approach. All this says is that I think that somebody versed in Japanese would be able to read this as the makers name and maybe where he was from. When I blow it up about 300 per cent it's easier to see.
 
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Mike1647 said:
The blade is in great shape, better than the scabbard and the handle. How can I tell if it had a handguard? There are no nicks or flat spots on the blade at all. A kind forum member sent me in the direction of some expert help and I thank him for that.
Click to expand...

DESPITE THE VARIOUS REFERENCES TO A "TSUBA" MADE IN VARIOUS POSTS ABOVE, I SEE NO TSUBA PICTURED. THE TSUBA IS ACTUALLY THE HAND GUARD, WHICH IS A CIRCULAR DISC THAT SEPARATES THE BLADE FROM THE HANDLE. IT IS USUALLY ORNATELY ADORNED WITH CARVINGS AND SYMBOLS, AND WOULD PROVIDE INFORMATION TO A KNOWLEDGEABLE OBSERVER. THE BLADESMITH, OR MAKER, USUALLY SIGNS THE BLADE, ON THE TANG SECTION, UNDER THE HANDLE. THAT SIGNATURE WILL HELP ID THE SWORD.....


I WOULD SAY THAT YOUR WEAPON ORIGINALLY HAD A TSUBA. I HAVE SEEN COLLECTIONS OF DIFFERENT TSUBAS, BY THEMSELVES, AT KNIFE SHOWS.......

I SUGGEST THAT YOU TAKE THE SWORD TO A KNIFE SHOW IN YOUR AREA, AND WALK AROUND WITH IT. INTERESTED PARTIES IN THE CROWD WILL APPROACH YOU, ON THEIR OWN, AND CONVERSE WITH YOU.....

SHOW IT TO ANY VENDOR WHO HAS SWORDS OR JAP MILITARIA ON HIS TABLE. TAKE A SMALL PAD, SO THAT YOU CAN RECORD THE INFO YOU GLEAN. IT WILL BE ALL NEW TO YOU, AND HARD TO REMEMBER. YOU MAY GET OFFERS TO PURCHASE IT. AS PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED---DO NOT CLEAN THE SWORD AT ALL ! ! !
 
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That looks awfully big and dirty to carry around. You might prefer something like my Benchmade Model 710 or a Swiss Army knife.


Seriously, good luck deciphering what you have. It may well be a rare and valuable item, worth the trouble to research.


Have you tried the Japanese weapons forum on Gunboards? And there are surely boards about Samurai swords.


Keep us posted. I'm curious about this one.
 
If there is as kind of swirly pattern near the edge it is not from added carbon. It is from being differential heat treated. The way it is done is a clay is applied along the spine and down the sides in an uneven manner. The clay is allowed to dry then the blade is heated to hardening temperatures. Then when the blade is quenched the clay acts as an insulation and the areas under and near the clay do not get totally hardened into martensite. This gives you an extremely hard edge and a softer less brittle spine. A high degree of polishing makes this show up and what you see is the difference between martensite and pearlite structure in the steel. This is called a Hamon and is an art form within itself. I know this guy Nick Wheeler and he is a very very talented blade smith. Look here

http://www.fototime.com/0970C8419FA7A91/orig.jpg

Go to the Bladeforum and if Stacy Apelt is still around he can tell you all about you blade. He is a jeweler and a bladesmith who specializes in Japanese swords and has tons of knowledge
 
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I know enough to know that Japanese swords vary widely, from worthless to priceless, and it takes somebody who really knows what he/she is doing to tell the difference. Millions were machine made for the war, and they're still floating around being touted as handmade originals. There are even multiple levels of handmade, again from nearly worthless to priceless. That being said, one of those experts can pick out real vs. not so real from across the room.
 
I appreciate all the help. I have contacted a person who is knowledgeable in swords for help. He is working on it now. I will update the post with any info I receive. rwsmith yes the color difference you described on the blade is present. This area is of a duller finish than the other portion of the blade.
 
Muss Muggins said:
I know enough to know that Japanese swords vary widely, from worthless to priceless, and it takes somebody who really knows what he/she is doing to tell the difference. Millions were machine made for the war, and they're still floating around being touted as handmade originals. There are even multiple levels of handmade, again from nearly worthless to priceless. That being said, one of those experts can pick out real vs. not so real from across the room.
Click to expand...

That is the whole thing about these Japanese swords. Some are really old and have a huge amount of history. At one time there were a host of specialist guild type craftsmen making the top end ones. A person who smelted the steel, the smith who forged them, those who finish shaping them, those who hardened them (on the real deal the sori or arc occurred during hardening), another just sharpened and yet another polished. One done in that mater is almost priceless. Some had legends worked into the steel. Some had a very hard piece of high carbon with another softer piece of lower carbon folded over it, some damascus type blades with high layer counts. These were for the lords and higher ranks and passed for generation to generation. The for the more common warrior class less craftsmanship. Then during the war huge amounts were mass produced for the officers etc. Then there became a post war market for "genuine Samuri sword" and more low quality junk often made to look like something wonderful. Phony acid etched lines and hamons.

Read a fair amount here.
Japanese swordsmithing - Wikipedia

Finding something rare and valuable is possible, but lots of basic junk too.

I agree get some one with real knowledge and then if it isn't an obvious reproduction or war time piece have an expert check it out.
 
Edit-New Information Added

I heard back from the person recommended and what he provided is very interesting. The sword is a katana made by a very well-known maker around the middle of WW2. The signature on the blade is Ichiryushi Nagamitsu, a maker of fine blades who won contests for his blades. It is a hand made water tempered sword. The mounts are not in good shape but could be restored. If you would like to know more Google "Ichihara Ichiryushi Nagamitsu". Thanks for all the suggestions.
 
There is a Japanese sword that went missing after WW11. The name escapes me at the moment. I'm sure someone on this thread will know it. The odds of you having it are greater than winning the lottery but if you are real lucky your grandchildren will be well taken of. There was an hour show on it but I don't remember the ch.( CRS syndrome)
 
Thanks for straightening me out.....

steelslaver said:
If there is as kind of swirly pattern near the edge it is not from added carbon. It is from being differential heat treated. The way it is done is a clay is applied along the spine and down the sides in an uneven manner. The clay is allowed to dry then the blade is heated to hardening temperatures. Then when the blade is quenched the clay acts as an insulation and the areas under and near the clay do not get totally hardened into martensite. This gives you an extremely hard edge and a softer less brittle spine. A high degree of polishing makes this show up and what you see is the difference between martensite and pearlite structure in the steel. This is called a Hamon and is an art form within itself. I know this guy Nick Wheeler and he is a very very talented blade smith. Look here

http://www.fototime.com/0970C8419FA7A91/orig.jpg

Go to the Bladeforum and if Stacy Apelt is still around he can tell you all about you blade. He is a jeweler and a bladesmith who specializes in Japanese swords and has tons of knowledge
Click to expand...

You are right. They do put carbon in the paste but that isn't the main effect, but the differential cooling that you mention. It's more than just 'amazing' that they figured all this out , so many fine details in the making, without metallurgical knowledge. I wonder how many swords were made in about 6 months time that turned out bad due to an experiment that didn't pan out.:confused:
 
Wow......

Mike1647 said:
I heard back from the person recommended and what he provided is very interesting. The sword is a katana made by a very well-known maker around the middle of WW2. The signature on the blade is Ichiryushi Nagamitsu, a maker of fine blades who won contests for his blades. It is a hand made water tempered sword. The mounts are not in good shape but could be restored. If you would like to know more Google "Ichihara Ichiryushi Nagamitsu". Thanks for all the suggestions.
Click to expand...

I think if you followed the leads you get on this forum, you'd be able to find out the secret of dark matter.:)
 
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